Guitar stores, yeah that's the problem

[christianm77]

I suppose there is also an economic argument to be made for getting rid of the archtop side of things.

Mind you are they going to keep trying to sell these?
Gibson Pro Audio - Les Paul Monitors

Anybody here want to buy wood effect Gibson studio monitors?

[ESCC]

Its a numbers game that has diminished through a generational change in culture and exposure.

I grew up in a house full of music, parents, grandparents, aunts and uncles, everyone played something, it was a living, a hobby, a past-time.

Being a child of the 60s I was constantly listening to the radio, buying 45s and albums as fast as I could get the money, watching rock bands on televison - admiring teles, strats and LPs, they were everywhere.

Next - I started playing, every weekend Fri & Sat, I had my Jazzmaster or Les Paul, Fender Showman amps and played at dances - schools, teen clubs, churches. Every other weekend we were in a "Battle of the Bands". If I wasn't playing I was going to dances and seeing, hearing being a part of live music, it was what us kids did in the 60s and 70s.

My son who is 30 loves music, we'll share names of new groups and trade files . . . but it pretty much ends there. In his youth he thought he might want to play guitar - or drums as did a number of his friends. However the motivation, awareness, incentive and exposure to jump head first into it (as many of us in the 60s and 70s did) was minimal at best. Dances - a DJ and turn-tables, teen clubs with live music - non-existent. To see and experience local musicians of comparable age and demographics standing in front of you creating music and entertaining an audience - that did not exist for him from the late 80s - through today(?).

Small club live performances, classic instruments - Gibson, Fender, Guild - its not a part of his generation, I encouraged him to take a bigger interest, but that was not enough incentive especially when competing with new video technologies, social media and the ever popular travel sports - baseball, football and ice-hockey - all consuming. To his generation - music, yea I'll get out my iPhone or checkout Youtube. That has had an impact throughout the music industry, Gibson and Heritage included - evolving interest of each generation and cultural changes . . . more to come.

[sgosnell]

I have zero knowledge of this specific layoff, but some companies intentionally lay off senior employees as a way to save money. The most senior employees are usually making the most money, so getting rid of them saves on salaries for a long time. Keep the lower paid employees, avoid giving them raises, and you save a lot of money. Nevermind quality, just saving money in the relatively short term so that executive bonuses can be increased is all that is important. Again, not saying this is the case here because I have no information at all, but it's not unheard of.

[2bornot2bop]

Re' Heritage vs Gibson: Dave's Guitars is now a Heritage dealer with some sweet offerings:

Heritage - Dave's Guitar Shop

Of course, that's no proof that Heritage will survive and Gibson won't, but Dave is a good businessman, and that's a vote of confidence.

No real Gibson news since 2/28, but here's an opinion piece from yesterday from down South:

Mt. Airy News | Bad leadership dooming Gibson guitars

It's weird seeing Dave's with so few Gibson electrics. Dave has both a used Tal Farlow and Herb Ellis each with repaired headstocks at street retail prices. That's a tough sell.

[Boston Joe]

It is counterintuitive, but that doesn't make it untrue, necessarily.

I am amused by your assumption that people - or companies - act in an economically rational fashion.

Sometimes they do. But sometimes they act out of pride, or fantasy - or just a lack of complete information.

Not every employee's agenda aligns with the needs of the company. A senior VP might be eyeing a CEO job at another company, and looking to make a splash, or any number of things along those lines. That might cause him to do something that's irrational from the POV of helping the company succeed but perfectly rational from the POV of advancing his career.

On the other hand, the decision may actually be rational. If the hand-made archtop line is losing money, then however much you may not want to, you may have to cut it loose.

[christianm77]

Not every employee's agenda aligns with the needs of the company. A senior VP might be eyeing a CEO job at another company, and looking to make a splash, or any number of things along those lines. That might cause him to do something that's irrational from the POV of helping the company succeed but perfectly rational from the POV of advancing his career.

On the other hand, the decision may actually be rational. If the hand-made archtop line is losing money, then however much you may not want to, you may have to cut it loose.

OTOH

Gibson Pro Audio - Les Paul Monitors

Manifestly, Gibson is not in the hands of rational men.

Literally anything could happen.

[rio]

Please refrain from reading the comments on the youtube site, they're absolutely depressing. I somewhat dislike namecalling in forum posts...

Well, I read the comments out of curiosity and in under a minute had enough. The problem wasn’t just the animosity and keyboard warriors it was that so many of them have no clue what they are talking about (I’m not speaking rhetorically - many are just making up their opinions with no facts). That is society today. So many people think they are experts at everything and even with no data or facts they think their opinions are the objective truth.


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[sgosnell]

Those Les Paul speakers must be something, for that price. Must be the "diamond-like carbon-coated titanium tweeters". Yeah, carbon is sort of like diamonds, diamonds are carbon, right? I guess I need to get out more, because I had never heard of those before.

[Jazzstdnt]

Americans would have a very hard time adapting to the Japanese work ethic where things are much less loosey-goosey.

But they will live longer on a diet of rice, tofu, daikon and broiled saba.

Yes, the Japanese fall over dead from overwork sometimes. Not the model to emulate.

But Americans would certainly not have a hard time with work ethic compared to Euros, now would we? That's why we're so far ahead. That's why we had to bail out Europe, time and time again. Don't you agree?

[Jazzstdnt]

I read something last week about a Chinese investor who could be interested in Gibson. He's a 30-year-old, the son of a Chinese billionaire. Daddy is the big shot who emerged from the Chinese red aristocracy, sonny followed in his footsteps and happens to like guitars, because he is cool, probably. I find that kind of humiliating for Gibson. I can't help but think none of this should have happened.

It's humiliating - that someone is interested?

Was it humiliating when Henry was interested?

[Jazzstdnt]

If Gibson's guitar business is still turning a healthy profit, I don't think the blame for Gibson's troubles can be laid at the retail end.

Sure, and IF Gibson's guitar business was/is turning a healthy profit, there would be no need to diversify. So why did they?

[Jazzstdnt]

It is counterintuitive, but that doesn't make it untrue, necessarily.

I am amused by your assumption that people - or companies - act in an economically rational fashion.

Sometimes they do. But sometimes they act out of pride, or fantasy - or just a lack of complete information.

I never assume.

And I am amused that a professional musician attacks me on the topic of macro and micro economic judgment.

[Jazzstdnt]

Why?

Disclaimer: I have no actual knowledge of what's going on. This is just speculation.

Let's say that even at their insane price points, Gibson hand made archtops don't make any money. Why? Too few sold. Even at a high margin, they can't recoup enough revenue to cover the labor costs. Each individual guitar might make money, but the shop as a whole doesn't. They could lay off, let's say, all but two guys, and still cover the actual demand. But even with just two guys, they still have all kinds of overhead.

At some point, you look at this and say, "Our rock guitars are selling. Our downmarket lines are making money. Do we really need to be making high-end archtops?" And cede that part of your market to whomever wants to work it. You've lost some revenue, but you've cut even more in costs. You put that money into yet another crappy Les Paul variant, your EPS goes up by some marginal amount, and shareholders are happy because you did "something".

Hold on! You want to keep the archtops as a "prestige" thing! They're good for your image! Easy peasy. Just do what the tech companies do: Outsource it! Someone wants a new L-5? Commission it from an independent luthier (probably one of the guys you laid off).

Now, that might not be what's going on. That might not be good business in the long run. But it is perfectly intuitive.

Insane price point? Compared to whom? Benedetto? Martin? PRS? I don't see how.

And you can't have it both ways. If they don't make any money off archtops due to high labor expense then they need to raise prices. Volume is not an option. In other words, the prices would be insanely low if that were the case, not high.

But I don't think that labor expense per hour makes L5s unprofitable. I don't believe that they pay their folks that much and I don't think it takes that much time. And outsourcing to skilled USA based master luthiers would not likely be a savings, from a TCO perspective.

Also, who said they laid off archtop makers? And what shareholders are you referring to?

[gggomez]

Gibson archtop jazz box discussion is fascinating in the context of recent comments by Kenny Burrell that jazz guitar is more popular than it has ever been.

Have not seen Gibson's balance sheet nor profit and loss. The brand is a household name world over. The way I see the market prestige brands are the ones that can make money, you do not want to be in the middle, the world is becoming too wealthy, the new economic power country consumers buy prestige brands.

If it goes in the drink, I am sure someone will buy the name, the jigs, the trademarks the patents, the best staff, if they have not already left but they can always be bought (yes bought not brought) back. Where it goes from there will be fascinating.

Do not know this Henry dude but it sounds like the above could be the best thing for us music lovers.

[christianm77]

I never assume.

And I am amused that a professional musician attacks me on the topic of macro and micro economic judgment.

Why do you feel attacked?

[christianm77]

Sure, and IF Gibson's guitar business was/is turning a healthy profit, there would be no need to diversify. So why did they?

Is that a true statement of fact though? I’m merely repeating something from a video. It’s quite possible it’s bollocks. I haven’t done any research on the matter, so mostly it’s just riffing.

Some people seem a bit more earnest in their positions.

That Gibson have been trying to reposition the brand for sometime it probably has something to do with a general decline in guitar sales globally. Strategically it makes sense to do so.

However it seems to have done this in quite a stupid way, that’s quite fun to laugh at.

The fact that the company owns so many other brands both in the guitar world and without gets overlooked in these sorts of discussion. It’s not ‘Gibson made duff guitars now they face bankruptcy’, more like ‘Gibson made poor business decisions generally.’

As a result I find Henry Js attempt to blame guitar retail completely risible. This to me smacks of hubris.

If anyone can counteract this view, you are welcome to have a pop possibly using some actual facts, which I haven’t included myself.

Possibly I am wrong and it is the fault of guitar retail?

[christianm77]

I might add that though I see some humour in the situation I am very aware that people are losing their jobs over a situation that is no fault of their own.

[LtKojak]

Yes, the Japanese fall over dead from overwork

Not as much as americans falling dead from overeating junk food, and a whole lot less from the ones dying from addiction to prescribed opioids. Look at the ACTUAL data of both cases.

But Americans would certainly not have a hard time with work ethic

As it doesn't exist, I certainly agree.

That's why we're so far ahead.

Ahead of WHAT exactly? I'm not sure I understand what you're referring to.

That's why we had to bail out Europe, time and time again. Don't you agree?

Well, if your sources of info on the topics you just cited come from Infowars and Breitbart and being fact-checked by blind mice appointed by Fox and Friends, then yes, I may have to agree.

Unfortunately, the people that live in the real world of actual facts and figures would've to respectfully disagree.

[christianm77]

Well, I read the comments out of curiosity and in under a minute had enough. The problem wasn’t just the animosity and keyboard warriors it was that so many of them have no clue what they are talking about (I’m not speaking rhetorically - many are just making up their opinions with no facts). That is society today. So many people think they are experts at everything and even with no data or facts they think their opinions are the objective truth.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I resemble that remark!!!

[christianm77]

OTOH I wouldn’t expect someone to have an MBA to have a discussion about this in the pub.

I think an issue with the web is no one is sure what kind of social space it is. It’s not like a bar or a pub. It’s a new thing.

Plus the fact that your comments are recorded in perpetuity.

[LtKojak]

The problem wasn’t just the animosity and keyboard warriors it was that so many of them have no clue what they are talking about (I’m not speaking rhetorically - many are just making up their opinions with no facts). That is society today. So many people think they are experts at everything and even with no data or facts they think their opinions are the objective truth.

Well, I'd blame it to the Internet. The greatest equalizer of all times.

An universal platform that puts in the same level the knowledge of few with the sheer ignorance of most. Unvoluntarily not helping the wise to gain in knowledge, but really helping the ignorant to get even more ignorant. Bless the hearts to the ones that still read books!

[christianm77]

Well, I'd blame it to the Internet. The greatest equalizer of all times.

An universal platform that puts in the same level the knowledge of few with the sheer ignorance of most. Unvoluntarily not helping the wise to gain in knowledge, but really helping the ignorant to get even more ignorant. Bless the hearts to the ones that still read books!

The thing that annoys me about the web is how closed off opinions are. People shut down and repeat the same thing over and over. There’s the Narrative and threats to it must be attacked.

To take a completely stupid example divorced from politics (mostly) look at the reaction to the Last Jedi. Entrenched binary positions. No shades of grey. And invective!!!!

People can get so entrenched about anything. CST for instance :-)

You can feel it happening to yourself, the brain rot.....

[skiboyny]

Guitar sales are falling. As a company you're either growing or dying. They proactively tried to counter this. They were by no means conservative with their approach!

Sure, and IF Gibson's guitar business was/is turning a healthy profit, there would be no need to diversify. So why did they?

[rio]

Well, I'd blame it to the Internet. The greatest equalizer of all times.

An universal platform that puts in the same level the knowledge of few with the sheer ignorance of most. Unvoluntarily not helping the wise to gain in knowledge, but really helping the ignorant to get even more ignorant. Bless the hearts to the ones that still read books!

That makes it even more frustrating to me. We have all of this info in our pockets and a constant lifeline to virtually any information or data we need. Don’t even need to wait to get home to a computer, just ask your phone, not even needing to type, and you can get facts. But you also have access to group thinking and people affirming each other’s ignorance in such a way that they think they must be right if there is a group of people who think the same way they do. So what could be a period of enlightenment with all of this information in our pockets instead is further dividing those who do actually try to learn and educate their opinions with those who group up based only on how they feel about a subject and not the facts that are one question away, asked to their Siri or Alexa or whatever other computer voice that could answer their questions.

The comment where I stopped reading on that YouTube video was saying how Asian companies have ruined so many American companies and virtually all of what he listed had nothing to do with Asian companies. He listed Kodak for example and when replies came that Kodak refused to embrace digital as the future of film being the cause of their demise he simply denied it.


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[Hammertone]

As a company you're either growing or dying.

Or possibly staying in the same place, quietly doing what you've been doing for many years, and staying in the same place.