Guitar stores, yeah that's the problem

[Longways to Go]

I think there is frequently a pecking order in dealerships....big players who sell a lot...may get more choice, sometimes special models available in just those stores. It's a struggle between who has more perceived market clout.

Dealer reps. may be pushing the higher-margined stuff...or being asked to push stuff that is overstocked.

It's like the cartoon with the 3 fishes. The biggest fish says "the world is a very fine place", the small fish says "the world is a very dangerous place", and the medium fish says "the world is sometimes fine, and sometimes dangerous."

Regarding the fish cartoon, doesn't it go more like:

the big fish eats the medium fish as it eats the small fish?

[Jazzstdnt]

Wow. This whole thing is surreal to me.
Gibson and Heritage out of the Archtop business. Henry is blaming the music stores for his companies demise. It’s like it’s all a bad dream.
It’s one of those things I never thought would happen. Right up there with no more baseball. And it just happened so quickly. It’s sad..

where does it say Gibson is out of the archtop business?

[silverfoxx]

where does it say Gibson is out of the archtop business?

Suggest that you look at the earlier posts on this thread e.g VinnyIk ,Stringswinger etc
which emphatically point out that Henry J has in effect closed the Crimson Custom shop
firing 15 of their top craftsmen responsible for L5 production , and others one assumes.
and to the dismay of most.

[Jabberwocky]

12 from The Heritage, 15 from Gibson Custom Shop...put them together and one could start an instant guitar manufactory.

I wonder what I should call it? Yeah, Elm Hill Pike Guitars...

These guys should just head south and work for Collings or Benedetto.

[stevus]

12 from The Heritage, 15 from Gibson Custom Shop...put them together and one could start an instant guitar manufactory.

I wonder what I should call it? Yeah, Elm Hill Pike Guitars...

These guys should just head south and work for Collings or Benedetto.

Or move to Japan, to work for Deviser or Westville...

But seriously, I think it a shrinking market for new high-end archtops and many other guitars, while there is so much competition these days from all over the world. If you have the money, and want to spend that, it is not too difficult to get a great guitar new or used, whether that sh/would be Gibson, Heritage, or something else.

[Jabberwocky]

Or move to Japan, to work for Deviser or Westville...

But seriously,

Americans would have a very hard time adapting to the Japanese work ethic where things are much less loosey-goosey.

But they will live longer on a diet of rice, tofu, daikon and broiled saba.

[m_d]

Well I agree with others that on the surface what Henry J says makes sense, but Gibson behavior belies that. Dave's Guitars had until recently one of the largest inventories of Gibsons in the world. Dave's was exactly the place Henry J describes--comfortable, knowledgeable staff, no pressure--I should know cause I've spent many hours there playing guitars, 99% of which I did not buy. I also know Dave on a casual level, follow him on Facebook, and know he was flummoxed by Gibson's decision. (He posted one of the links below online.)

The Gibson news is coming fast and furious, and none of it is good for Gibson...

Chinese Investment Group Considering a 'Fire-Sale Acquisition' of Gibson Guitar

Gibson guitars could be on the brink of bankruptcy | Woodworking Network

Gibson lays off staff in Nashville custom shop | Nashville Post

I read something last week about a Chinese investor who could be interested in Gibson. He's a 30-year-old, the son of a Chinese billionaire. Daddy is the big shot who emerged from the Chinese red aristocracy, sonny followed in his footsteps and happens to like guitars, because he is cool, probably. I find that kind of humiliating for Gibson. I can't help but think none of this should have happened.

[Ray175]

"Each Gibson created is more than a perfect instrument"

Other than on Custom Shop jobs I'm sad to say that "too many Gibsons created are less than a perfect instrument"

Thank God that there are still some customer-oriented dealers willing to take the time to correct many basic set up and finishing errors that should never get past QC if the above maketing spin were true. The corrective work then eats into their margins, because that work takes time and money - vicious circle...

[stevus]

Americans would have a very hard time adapting to the Japanese work ethic where things are much less loosey-goosey.

But they will live longer on a diet of rice, tofu, daikon and broiled saba.

Indeed, less loosey-goosey, less obesitas, but great guitar builders

[Namelyguitar]

Example: In the last 10 years, it's obvious some musicians/ players are no longer with us, and many beginners never got past the first curve in the road. What does it take to further interest, motivate, and retain those that stopped into the store to buy a guitar?

Beyond a 'sale' or the ability to try 'em at larger stores, what's Gibson (or say, GC) really doing to 'light the fire' in younger (or any) people to start playing, and keep on playing guitar? Crickets.

[Al Br.]

With Gibson's pricing and lower standard of quality, I'd say they're not doing anything.

[goldenwave77]

Example: In the last 10 years, it's obvious some musicians/ players are no longer with us, and many beginners never got past the first curve in the road. What does it take to further interest, motivate, and retain those that stopped into the store to buy a guitar?

Beyond a 'sale' or the ability to try 'em at larger stores, what's Gibson (or say, GC) really doing to 'light the fire' in younger (or any) people to start playing, and keep on playing guitar? Crickets.

Well, Gibson had the "Learn and Master" 20 DVD instructional series for around $100 with tons of lessons for someone who really wanted to play. Also online clips.

The real problem is decline in guitar music generally.

I bet other companies are looking at the same downturn in demand: Gibson has the double whammy, as it relied on older, affluent baby boomers who suddenly are 1. dying, 2. no longer buying, or 3. no longer playing. This is the downside of the demographic "pig in a python" bulge.

Why is the state of music a Gibson problem, though?

I have 3 kids 25, 24, and 21. None of them ever listened to radio or CD's much....some listening of digital stuff...little interest in their peers either. My older brothers by that age had hundreds of albums, and I had a good number as well. They were ex-trumpeters and I never played anything.

Music ....tunes...just seemed to be more central. Even as a teenager in 70's, while I didn't play an instrument I was always listening, as were my peers...on the car radio, at home, at the beach, with friends or at family gatherings (with some arguments about what got played). School dances, Battle of the Bands, the Ed Sullivan Show every week and other variety shows, Top 40 radio..WRVR--full time jazz, the beginnings of extended play album rock (Alison Steele, etc.), Soul Train, Don Kirshner's rock concert on late night TV...there was always something around to listen to, or watch, and people did.

[Boston Joe]

Well, Gibson had the "Learn and Master" 20 DVD instructional series for around $100 with tons of lessons for someone who really wanted to play. Also online clips.

The real problem is decline in guitar music generally.

[...]

Why is the state of music a Gibson problem, though?

I have 3 kids 25, 24, and 21. None of them ever listened to radio or CD's much....[snip].

Interesting perspective. I wonder if online time is replacing the time we spent listening to music as kids. One would think that with things like Spotify and even YouTube, one would have music going all the time. But I used to put on a record, and just lie on my bed and close my eyes, and let the music do whatever it was going to do to my imagination. A kid now is likely staring at his phone.

I also wonder how many kids with an interest in music are going the DJ/DAW route vs. learning a more traditional instrument.

[rlrhett]

By far the best musicians I meet today are between 15 and 30. More often than not they are playing instruments other than guitars. Fiddles, banjo, mandolin, piano, horns, you name it.

Just because they are loitering on your lawn with their iDoohickes and their Facegram doesn’t mean they don’t have all the same passion for music Baby Boomers did 60 years ago.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Sam Sherry]

"Each Gibson created is more than a perfect instrument"

Other than on Custom Shop jobs I'm sad to say that "too many Gibsons created are less than a perfect instrument"

Thank God that there are still some customer-oriented dealers willing to take the time to correct many basic set up and finishing errors that should never get past QC if the above marketing spin were true. The corrective work then eats into their margins, because that work takes time and money - vicious circle...

Yeah, but that was true even back in the 20s and 30s when Gibson wrote that advertising copy.

I've owned 20s and 30s Gibson archtops with notable 'manufacturing idosyncracies,'and one mid-30s outright dawg. In the late 20s and 30s, if somebody couldn't find the headstock overlay with the appropriate deco, or if somebody routed for the wrong binding, or if somebody put an ebony board on a rosewood-board model, please don't think for a moment that the guitar would get bandsawed.

"Ship it, Louie."

[Boston Joe]

By far the best musicians I meet today are between 15 and 30. More often than not they are playing instruments other than guitars. Fiddles, banjo, mandolin, piano, horns, you name it.

Just because they are loitering on your lawn with their iDoohickes and their Facegram doesn’t mean they don’t have all the same passion for music Baby Boomers did 60 years ago.

There are some kids around here who are seriously killing it, but I don't regard Boston as being typical in that way (or at least I don't think it is). We've got more than the average number of music schools here, and therefore, lots of music school grads. So the music programs in a lot of the primary and secondary schools are often pretty good. Plus all the kids who come here to go to Berklee and NEC.

But yeah, I always get nervous when a young kid shows up at a session. Because he's either going to be a rank beginner, or he's going to blow us old farts off the stage.

But I'm wondering...

Back when I was a kid, a lot of kids bought guitars. Most of them didn't stick with it, of course, but probably half of my friends at least gave it a try. I wonder what that proportion would be today.

[goldenwave77]

[QUOTE=rlrhett;851793]By far the best musicians I meet today are between 15 and 30. More often than not they are playing instruments other than guitars. Fiddles, banjo, mandolin, piano, horns, you name it.

Just because they are loitering on your lawn with their iDoohickes and their Facegram doesn’t mean they don’t have all the same passion for music Baby Boomers did 60 years ago.

I don't doubt this. With all the digital stuff available today, the dedicated, talented top kids SHOULD be better. In theory, more music, more instructional material, etc. is around.

I guess I still think there is somewhat less interest, overall. A lot of kids play video games, and just don't seem to listen to much music. (My downstairs neighbor plays video games loud. When it's too bad, I have to go for a walk...sometimes I retaliate by blasting Artie Shaw or Jobim, and I've heard him start to play some real music, instead of video game stuff...so maybe it's "taking".)

Maybe the standard deviation of interest is greater...so the best kids are really, really good, but maybe the overall level of interest (the avg.) is less.

I can remember a junior high dance in 7th grade...the "Dukes" were playing....kind of 50's aggressive doo-wop, early rock n' roll kind of stuff...black leather jackets and slicked hair, and vocal arrangements, and some instrumental playing. And they were pretty good...in fact they were led by Dee Snider who went on to do Twisted Sister. He was older---maybe 15 or 16, and his brother was in my grade.

After that, a bunch of kids wanted to start up groups, and there were a lot of guitars...drummers were rare...a drum set cost some bucks, and you needed to have played for a bit...etc.

There was also more of a live scene...Oak Beach INN was up and running-20 minute drive, I think Blue Oyster Cult played there sometimes....Brian Setzer grew up a few towns away....I saw Joe Puma and Sonny Fortune in a suburban Italian restaurant a few towns away....I could drive but not drink and could afford a $5 cover, and a couple of cokes...as I wasn't legal, so it was cool.

NYC in '70's was a little rough around the edges in some areas...but there were a LOT of clubs.

[powerwagonjohn]

Hold it for a second.... I have to flip the album!
Thanks John

[Jazzstdnt]

Suggest that you look at the earlier posts on this thread e.g VinnyIk ,Stringswinger etc
which emphatically point out that Henry J has in effect closed the Crimson Custom shop
firing 15 of their top craftsmen responsible for L5 production , and others one assumes.
and to the dismay of most.

Unless I missed something, it seems like speculation and projection to me. Nowhere is it said that the entire location is being shut down, only that some workers are gone. Part of a company-wide trimming according to the CEO. The custom shop has a "line" there anyway, right? So it's not 15 John Buscarino's making every last part on individual guitars. One person paints, another does inlay, another carves (with the CNC) another attaches necks, etc. etc.

Anyway, on layoffs, I've seen a few of those by now. Been there, done that. Companies cut some here, cut some there. Get into fighting shape again. Typically they'll offload the least valuable resources, or at least ones whose contribution can be lived without. They TRY, anyway. It is counterintuitive that Gibson would cut all of their best archtop builders, although they certainly might lay off some.

The current Gibson ownership may succeed in re-financing or it may fail. But Gibson guitars will live on.
Heritage wouldn't be missed by very many people if it went away. I bear them no malice, I'm just being honest.

I haven't seen any official statement that Gibson arch tops will cease to be made. If that is true my collection just skyrocketed, but I don't believe it's true.

[Doctor Jeff]

I can remember a junior high dance in 7th grade...the "Dukes" were playing....kind of 50's aggressive doo-wop, early rock n' roll kind of stuff...black leather jackets and slicked hair, and vocal arrangements, and some instrumental playing. And they were pretty good...in fact they were led by Dee Snider who went on to do Twisted Sister. He was older---maybe 15 or 16, and his brother was in my grade.

Hey, that's a cool memory. My fraternity brother, Kevin Scollard, said that he was a roadie with Twisted Sister for one summer--must have grown up in the same place. For some reason I'm thinking Scarsdale, but my memory is not great these days. Wonder if you and your brother knew him?

Yes there were few places like the NYC club scene in the 70's. A breeding ground for great art.

Kevin died a sudden and untimely death from depression and suicide last year. RIP dude.

[Doctor Jeff]

Re' Heritage vs Gibson: Dave's Guitars is now a Heritage dealer with some sweet offerings:

Heritage - Dave's Guitar Shop

Of course, that's no proof that Heritage will survive and Gibson won't, but Dave is a good businessman, and that's a vote of confidence.

No real Gibson news since 2/28, but here's an opinion piece from yesterday from down South:

https://www.mtairynews.com/opinion/5...gibson-guitars

[christianm77]

If Gibson's guitar business is still turning a healthy profit, I don't think the blame for Gibson's troubles can be laid at the retail end.

[Brubra]

Please refrain from reading the comments on the youtube site, they're absolutely depressing. I somewhat dislike namecalling in forum posts...

[Boston Joe]

It is counterintuitive that Gibson would cut all of their best archtop builders, although they certainly might lay off some.

Why?

Disclaimer: I have no actual knowledge of what's going on. This is just speculation.

Let's say that even at their insane price points, Gibson hand made archtops don't make any money. Why? Too few sold. Even at a high margin, they can't recoup enough revenue to cover the labor costs. Each individual guitar might make money, but the shop as a whole doesn't. They could lay off, let's say, all but two guys, and still cover the actual demand. But even with just two guys, they still have all kinds of overhead.

At some point, you look at this and say, "Our rock guitars are selling. Our downmarket lines are making money. Do we really need to be making high-end archtops?" And cede that part of your market to whomever wants to work it. You've lost some revenue, but you've cut even more in costs. You put that money into yet another crappy Les Paul variant, your EPS goes up by some marginal amount, and shareholders are happy because you did "something".

Hold on! You want to keep the archtops as a "prestige" thing! They're good for your image! Easy peasy. Just do what the tech companies do: Outsource it! Someone wants a new L-5? Commission it from an independent luthier (probably one of the guys you laid off).

Now, that might not be what's going on. That might not be good business in the long run. But it is perfectly intuitive.

[christianm77]

Unless I missed something, it seems like speculation and projection to me. Nowhere is it said that the entire location is being shut down, only that some workers are gone. Part of a company-wide trimming according to the CEO. The custom shop has a "line" there anyway, right? So it's not 15 John Buscarino's making every last part on individual guitars. One person paints, another does inlay, another carves (with the CNC) another attaches necks, etc. etc.

Anyway, on layoffs, I've seen a few of those by now. Been there, done that. Companies cut some here, cut some there. Get into fighting shape again. Typically they'll offload the least valuable resources, or at least ones whose contribution can be lived without. They TRY, anyway. It is counterintuitive that Gibson would cut all of their best archtop builders, although they certainly might lay off some.

The current Gibson ownership may succeed in re-financing or it may fail. But Gibson guitars will live on.
Heritage wouldn't be missed by very many people if it went away. I bear them no malice, I'm just being honest.

I haven't seen any official statement that Gibson arch tops will cease to be made. If that is true my collection just skyrocketed, but I don't believe it's true.

It is counterintuitive, but that doesn't make it untrue, necessarily.

I am amused by your assumption that people - or companies - act in an economically rational fashion.

Sometimes they do. But sometimes they act out of pride, or fantasy - or just a lack of complete information.