Gibson L5 - Acoustic or Electric?

[Tal_175]

Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a modern L5. I played L5's from 40's, non-cutaway, floating pickup types.
My understanding is modern acoustic archtops typically have floating pickups and light resonant construction. They are all solid wood, hand carved and expensive so you got these design choices that make the acoustic qualities shine.
Modern L5's seemed to be designed to fight feedback at the expense of acoustic performance to some extend as they have built in pick-ups and I've heard they are also built heavily (thick top). Modern achtops also have cross bracing as opposed to the parallel bracing of L5's.
It seems to me like one wouldn't make an all solid hand carved instrument only to shape the sound coming through the pickups. But then clearly L5's are designed with their electric use in mind as much as acoustic. So how does L5's acoustic performance compare to modern achtops of similar price like Campellone's?
Would you say modern L5's are more electric than acoustic guitars? Or L5's are the ultimate mid point between electric and acoustic designs?

[BigMikeinNJ]

My understanding is a little different than yours - my understanding is that post WWII, about the time Gibson started making electrified more than acoustic guitars built to use floating pickups - let's call them L5CES guitars - they started using thicker tops than the older ones were carved. WHY, so they wouldn't be faced with a lot of warranty repairs. So all L5s were made with thicker tops... Funny that once Heritage started making Golden Eagles, their answer to the L5, they used a thinner tops

They're all lovely instruments...

Big

[jads57]

If you are a player who is gigging my suggestion is to go with a more modern instrument, like Campellone. I think if you have deep pockets and wish to have an old Gibson,D'A, Epiphone, that's great too. But you need to realize these were made for their era of music.

Now is an excellent time for both Modern Archtops as well as buying them used. Campellone,Buscarino,Elferink, Napolitano, Comins, Hopkins, Andersen, to name just a few!

[rio]

. So how does L5's acoustic performance compare to modern achtops of similar price like Campellone's?
Would you say modern L5's are more electric than acoustic guitars? Or L5's are the ultimate mid point between electric and acoustic designs?

I can only give you a comparison to Eastman, which was started by copying Benedetto (thin top and all of that that you mentioned). Mine is a very early 805ce, one of the first couple hundred made and is one of the best Eastmans I’ve played so I don’t mind using that as example. My L5 is a ‘70.

Between the two you would not ever think of the L5 as an acoustic instrument. It is loud enough to practice with in my living room and loud enough that on quieter gigs (like a duet with a vocalist in a small place) it gives some depth to the electric sound since it is audible. But it is no where near the Eastman which sounds like an acoustic guitar. The L5 has a nice acoustic sound, better than a similar laminate, but is never call it an acoustic guitar or expect it to function like one. Even though the L5 is 17” and the Eastman is 16” I could play the Eastman acoustically at a quiet gig if I was just playing rhythm.

I wouldn’t say that the L5 is the ultimate midpoint between acoustic and electric but to me it is the ultimate implementation of a carved hollow body archtop to achieve a superb electric sound. If it wasn’t built as it is, the electric sound wouldn’t sound like it does (as exhibited by not many other guitars sounding like an L5). I would say that if you are looking for a midpoint between acoustic and electric that a thinner carved top, single routed pickup would be that guitar. My Eastman tends to the more acoustic side because it had a floating pickup. Route the guitar for two pickups and it would tend more towards the electric side but still sit more in the middle than an L5.


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[lawson-stone]

Unfortunately I've never had a chance to play a modern L5. I played L5's from 40's, non-cutaway, floating pickup types.
My understanding is modern acoustic archtops typically have floating pickups and light resonant construction. They are all solid wood, hand carved and expensive so you got these design choices that make the acoustic qualities shine.
Modern L5's seemed to be designed to fight feedback at the expense of acoustic performance to some extend as they have built in pick-ups and I've heard they are also built heavily (thick top). Modern achtops also have cross bracing as opposed to the parallel bracing of L5's.
It seems to me like one wouldn't make an all solid hand carved instrument only to shape the sound coming through the pickups. But then clearly L5's are designed with their electric use in mind as much as acoustic. So how does L5's acoustic performance compare to modern achtops of similar price like Campellone's?
Would you say modern L5's are more electric than acoustic guitars? Or L5's are the ultimate mid point between electric and acoustic designs?

You seem to be obscuring the fact that there are THREE L5 basic types. There are purely acoustic L5s, then there are those with floating pickups, then there are those with the pickups mounted in routed openings in the top. Maybe the first two are physically the same, but the L5 Wes (1 pickup) and the L5ces (2 pickups) are designed to marry the sweetness and resonance of a solid carved top (and back, don't forget) with the "thunk" of rout-mounted pickups.

So the L5ces is a complex beast, and I think your initial question flattens these distinctions and risks skewing the matter into a needless "either/or."

I also don't think the parallel braced guitar is a minority. The L5 was actually parallel braced originally from the beginning to about 1934, when X bracing was introduced with the enlarged tops. But in 1939 the standard bracing returned to parallel bracing, while the L5 was still a purely acoustic guitar--pickups were introduced in 1951. That has continued to be the default bracing to this day, from all I can learn, though a custom order is always possible.

[rpguitar]

The L-5 was a purely acoustic guitar from 1923 until 1951 when the L-5 Cutaway Electric Spanish (CES) was introduced. Any floating pickups on those old babies were installed in order to amplify them, but amplification was not a consideration in the guitars' design. They weigh in the 5-6 lb. range typically. They are loud.

The CES model is an electric guitar by design. It has acoustic qualities but not an acoustic design. It's not meant to be played that way. But its acoustic qualities inform the electric sound, and can be felt by the player. Most importantly, do not dismiss it as just another electric guitar. It has an inimitable sound and feel, and that is why it's a classic.

The Johnny Smith and Super V BJB, while equipped from the factory with floating pickups, are not strictly L-5 models so I won't address them.

The only modern L-5 that is a purely acoustic guitar by design is, not surprisingly, the 1934 Reissue. The newer L-5P, I would suggest, was designed as an acoustic guitar but meant to be played amplified. It weighs in the 7 lb. range which is a lot heavier, comes equipped with a metal TOM saddle, and is softer in terms of volume than the older guitars.

[Rob MacKillop]

There's an L5P for sale HERE at one million dollars!

[Tal_175]

The L-5 was a purely acoustic guitar from 1923 until 1951 when the L-5 Cutaway Electric Spanish (CES) was introduced. Any floating pickups on those old babies were installed in order to amplify them, but amplification was not a consideration in the guitars' design. They weigh in the 5-6 lb. range typically. They are loud.

The CES model is an electric guitar by design. It has acoustic qualities but not an acoustic design. It's not meant to be played that way. But its acoustic qualities inform the electric sound, and can be felt by the player. Most importantly, do not dismiss it as just another electric guitar. It has an inimitable sound and feel, and that is why it's a classic.

The Johnny Smith and Super V BJB, while equipped from the factory with floating pickups, are not strictly L-5 models so I won't address them.

The only modern L-5 that is a purely acoustic guitar by design is, not surprisingly, the 1934 Reissue. The newer L-5P, I would suggest, was designed as an acoustic guitar but meant to be played amplified. It weighs in the 7 lb. range which is a lot heavier, comes equipped with a metal TOM saddle, and is softer in terms of volume than the older guitars.

Thanks, that clears things up for me. So one shouldn't really compare L5 with Campellone special 17 or high end Eastmans. I guess modern L5 is the ultimate jazz electric then (to some.

[Tal_175]

You seem to be obscuring the fact that there are THREE L5 basic types. There are purely acoustic L5s, then there are those with floating pickups, then there are those with the pickups mounted in routed openings in the top. Maybe the first two are physically the same, but the L5 Wes (1 pickup) and the L5ces (2 pickups) are designed to marry the sweetness and resonance of a solid carved top (and back, don't forget) with the "thunk" of rout-mounted pickups.

So the L5ces is a complex beast, and I think your initial question flattens these distinctions and risks skewing the matter into a needless "either/or."

I also don't think the parallel braced guitar is a minority. The L5 was actually parallel braced originally from the beginning to about 1934, when X bracing was introduced with the enlarged tops. But in 1939 the standard bracing returned to parallel bracing, while the L5 was still a purely acoustic guitar--pickups were introduced in 1951. That has continued to be the default bracing to this day, from all I can learn, though a custom order is always possible.

You seem to be not aware of or choose to disregard ( based on your response) the difference in L5 designs over the years with respect to its acoustic voice, which is what the question is about. That would be "flattening" the Gibson's history of L5 designs into the current modern 3 models you mention
Please refer to rpgutiars very informative answer in this regard.

[JazzNote]

There's an L5P for sale HERE at one million dollars!

The ideal choice for someone who wants to get involved in offroad playing

[JazzNote]

Would you say modern L5's are more electric than acoustic guitars? Or L5's are the ultimate mid point between electric and acoustic designs?

I think the L5CES to be ultimate midpoint yes. Less problematic in terms of feedback, and darker than acoustic designs with floaters. I never played a Campellone, can't compare them.

[rpguitar]

I am fortunate to own five unique L-5 models representing many of its important incarnations:

16" acoustic, 17" acoustic, 17" cutaway acoustic with floater, 17" Wes Montgomery model, 17" CES model.

I recently got the WesMo, after dismissing it for a long time as redundant to my "needs" given that I had these others. Boy was I wrong. To me it's the perfect blend of acoustic/electric for a guitar that is meant to be played amplified. The CES has less acoustic character than I want, and the L-5C (equipped with a DeArmond 1100) has perhaps too much acoustic character. The WesMo is my new and forever baby!

The older non-cut acoustic guitars possess, of course, the perfect amount of acoustic character. Preferring the 16" or 17" is entirely a matter of the type of music one wishes to play. The 16" is about as perfect an acoustic archtop for any music that one could hope for, and the 17" is a classic swing band rhythm guitar as Mr. Stout has so aptly demonstrated for us.

[Dennis D]

You seem to be not aware of or choose to disregard ( based on your response) the difference in L5 designs over the years with respect to its acoustic voice, which is what the question is about. That would be "flattening" the Gibson's history of L5 designs into the current modern 3 models you mention
Please refer to rpgutiars very informative answer in this regard.

Sometimes the real answers to questions will come from bits and pieces of responses which may or may not have directly answered the questions posed.

And that being said, if someone tries to graciously answer I question I posed here or elsewhere, as a courtesy, I don't necessarily correct his response - - I figure if I'm so smart, why am I asking a question .

But of course that's just me......

[JazzNote]

I recently got the WesMo, after dismissing it for a long time as redundant to my "needs" given that I had these others. Boy was I wrong. To me it's the perfect blend of acoustic/electric for a guitar that is meant to be played amplified. The CES has less acoustic character than I want, and the L-5C (equipped with a DeArmond 1100) has perhaps too much acoustic character. The WesMo is my new and forever baby!

rp, would it be possible to elaborate a bit on the difference between a CES and WESMO played through an amp? Feedbackwise, tonewise, and whatever comes to your mind?

[rpguitar]

JazzNote,

To be honest I never play loud enough to be able to evaluate feedback. But let me try to describe some other stuff:

Notes just leap out of the WesMo at the slightest touch. It has the smoothest, flute-like tonal quality. One might call it "reedy" but it has a depth and warmth that fill out the sound beautifully. I had been led to believe that the CES is darker and the WesMo is bright, perhaps in a bad way. I don't really see that. The CES is less lively, not darker. I have to fight it just a bit more. The tone knob on the WesMo works just fine and provides a really wide range of adjustment, should one wish to throw a blanket over one's tone (I usually do not).

The other WesMo quality is an effortless "pop" when one digs in. I think the slightly more acoustic nature of the guitar facilitates this. Some of Wes's recordings have this sound, since he pushes the strings somewhat aggressively with his thumb, producing a funky, accented attack to each note. I love this and use it a lot in my playing. It is one of the expressive qualities I've always sought in an archtop, and I just don't get it so easily with any other full size hollowbody I've played.

There is also a lovely harmonic overtone thing happening when one does this. You willl get a little less of it with a wooden saddle, however attractive such saddles may be. Hence I have left the stock TOM on the WesMo. It's just perfect! I also think the lighter weight, nearly a full pound less, is such a relief compared to the CES, even though I play seated.

So to summarize, the WesMo is smooth and clear and llively. The CES is a little less of all those things, while still remaining a fantastic guitar. This is not hamburger vs. filet mignon here... it's different cuts of filet! (But I have my preference)

[Tal_175]

And that being said, if someone tries to graciously answer I question I posed here or elsewhere, as a courtesy, I don't necessarily correct his response

That's your style and thanks for sharing it here. I on the other hand find that there is nothing wrong with pointing out if a given response indicates a misunderstanding of the original post in crucial ways.

[h1pst3r88]

The early 2000's Bozeman Custom Shop L-7C, which is X-braced, has a superb acoustic tone. When a floater (in my case, a KA PAF0) is retrofitted to the pickguard with tone and volume controls, it transforms into a beautifully articulate electric tone. The magic in the middle is when the guitar is plugged in at lower volume and mic'd -- those two tones mixed, to my ears, is one of the purest guitar tones I have ever heard.

Great replies by all the folks in the thread... as always

[lawson-stone]

You seem to be not aware of or choose to disregard ( based on your response) the difference in L5 designs over the years with respect to its acoustic voice, which is what the question is about. That would be "flattening" the Gibson's history of L5 designs into the current modern 3 models you mention
Please refer to rpgutiars very informative answer in this regard.

Kinda prickly? I just thought your mention of the instruments seemed to blur amongst them. I meant no offense, which you seem to have taken anyhow.

I'll keep my thoughts to myself from now on. Sorry for having transgressed.

[h1pst3r88]

You better not keep your thoughts to yourself, Lawson. You are one of my favorite forum members and I always value your thoughtful and respectful contributions.

To answer your rhetorical question, yeah, that dude was prickly... and unnecessarily so.

"Smile, it gives your face something to do" (from a poster in my parents' classic 1970's furnished basement).

[Tal_175]

I'll keep my thoughts to myself from now on.

Well that's dramatic. Talk about prickly

I am sorry if my response lacked the same level of attention to delicacy your initial response had.

[Max405]

The early 2000's Bozeman Custom Shop L-7C, which is X-braced, has a superb acoustic tone. When a floater (in my case, a KA PAF0) is retrofitted to the pickguard with tone and volume controls, it transforms into a beautifully articulate electric tone. The magic in the middle is when the guitar is plugged in at lower volume and mic'd -- those two tones mixed, to my ears, is one of the purest guitar tones I have ever heard.

Great replies by all the folks in the thread... as always

Your acoustic/electric scenario is my ABSOLUTE favorite sound coming from any instrument, period.
When I had my L7C, I dreamed of adding a floater to it. They are GREAT guitars. A lightweight cannon.
But I was afraid to change the tone robbing ultra skinny frets on it to Medium Jumbos. If had done that and put a floater on it, I swear to you, I would probably still have that guitar.
Joe D

[Max405]

Well that's dramatic. Talking about prickly

I am sorry if my response did not measure up to the pleasant overtones of your initial response.

Tal175, Lawson is a really good guy. I am sure he didn't mean any harm or disrespect. Sometimes things come out wrong. He probably typed his response while on some archeological dig on a beach in Jordan. Trust me, he is a good guy.
Joe D

[h1pst3r88]

Well, still trying to make that L-7C sound like you, Joe ;-)

-C

[2bornot2bop]

One man's "prickly" is another man's directness.

I've owned L5CES, WesMo, and a Campellone. I found each guitar unique to themselves. As they should be for they're built differently. Regarding feedback, if one is only using any guitar in the home feedback isn't generally an issue for your volume level will be at a minimum compared to public performance. The Campellone was my choice, but only because I place a higher value on acoustic archtops. Between the L5CES and Wesmo, I preferred the L5CES hands down. I found the tone much fatter, and more pleasing. I found the WesMo bright to my ears, and it didn't stay long. Everyone hears differently, and requires different things from any archtop. Your mileage will vary depending upon your demands.

[Max405]

Thank you brother.

Well, still trying to make that L-7C sound like you, Joe ;-)

-C