What if Gibson were to be reorganized along the modern Gretsch model?

[Jim Soloway]

When Fender took over the marketing for Gretsch (I don't believe they ever took ownership of the brand), they completely overhauled the way the company was organized. High end models were moved to one of the top Japanese factories. Less expensive iterations of the well known models were moved to various factories throughout Asia with the location dependent on the desired sale price point and I believe later in the game they added a US based custom shop (I may have the sequence wrong here but I'm sure some on will know).

From the very start everyone loved the Japanese made Gretsch guitars. Instead of being thought of as a company the had a long history of quality control issues, they were heralded as the best guitars Gretsch had ever built. They established permanent relationships with some of the top Gretsch players and they established a strong market for these guitars at substantial prices. The less expensive guitars have sold well and have helped build a broader market for Gretsch without seeming to have encroached on their high end sales.

The brand seems to be thriving and their image seems to be at or near an all time high. Is their any reason why Gibson couldn't be reorganized along the same sort of model and achieve and even greater level of success? And if I got any of the specifics wrong, please feel free to correct me but I think the general outline is right).

[ptchristopher3]

Sounds more or less right to me.

What is certainly great is the quality of my two Terada-built Gretsch guitars.

Extremely well made and a bargain.

[Lobomov]

Lower output brand with a smaller base of buyers than Gibson. I guessing that sales wouldn't really increase much even if Gretsch lowered their price a couple of hundred dollars. (Gretsch guitars are slightly more expensive than say comparable Ibanez guitars to take another japaneese brand)

Gibson on the other hand is a high ouput brand, where especially on their Gibson USA line (LPs, SGs etc) a small upwards shift in price point might cost them a much more substantial decrease in sales and thus profit.

I guessing the LP/SG standards down to the classic/faded/tribute models are their bread and butter.

Can they move their high volume Nashville plant to Japan and make it work .. I dunno?

But apart from that .. the archtop/jazz market has been shrinking, which I guess is the reason why our guitars seem to get more and more expensive every year. They are charging the remaining diehards a big premium.


Anyways I just throwing out guesses based on gut feeling, but unlike you I have no experience with actually being involved in guitar manifacturing, so basically I'm mostly throwing this out to get my own thoughts tested

[rio]

The quality control issue would be fixed that way I bet. Do any Japanese companies use nitro or are they all using poly? I would imagine that being a gripe if they didn’t keep using nitro as a finish but honestly it would probably benefit players a lot if they did a move like that both in terms of prices and the overall quality of the guitars that are sent out.


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[Jim Soloway]

The quality control issue would be fixed that way I bet. Do any Japanese companies use nitro or are they all using poly? I would imagine that being a gripe if they didn’t keep using nitro as a finish but honestly it would probably benefit players a lot if they did a move like that both in terms of prices and the overall quality of the guitars that are sent out.


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Gretsch has several models with nitro finishes but at a quick glance it's unclear on their site where those guitars are built.

Professional Collection

[Brian B]

Can Japanese Gibsons work? Hell yeah. One look at the old Epiphone Elitist lines is all you need. Some of them even had the open book headstock, and nitro finishes if memory serves. Just change the name on the headstock. Voila!

IIRC, Gibson killed off the Epi Elitists because they were too good. T'would be ironic if they resumed production only with Gibson on the headstock...


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[feet]

two wrinkles to consider would be that gretches had been made in japan for decades before fender showed up, and many (current) gibson guys are too gung ho mia/traditional/change averse for this sort of thing.

that said, the guitars would obviously be better, as my pile of elitist epiphones and gretsches will attest to.

[ptchristopher3]

Feet,

While I do not have a pile (well of guitars anyway), I do at the moment have on the stands an Epi Elite Byrdland and a Gretsch 6112 center block.

If I could find a Gibson Byrdland that came even close to these guitars in basic quality I would buy it.

Yes, the Gibson designs would be built to a far higher standard if this dream Gretsch-like maneuver ever took place.

Hell, Terada even used fret nibs on the Epi Byrdland - although executed better so the usable fret width was maintained. (Ironically Gibson claims to now maintain usable fret width with their new breakthrough “undercut” frets, which are thus nibless.)

Onward and sideward.

[icr]

Gretsch is a USA company and I'd never buy a Gretsch that was not made in the USA. If I want a Japanese guitar I'll buy an Ibanez or Yamaha (and I have them).

[jorgemg1984]

Gibson had an average of 200 million in sales the last few years and has around 1000 workers. The data I saw for Gretsch estimated 60 wotkers and 10 millions in revenue. Hard to replicate the plan.

[entresz]

I can't fault my Japanese Gretsch G-400 - with the Vintage Vibe floating CC pickup, it's my main gigging guitar. I would not hesitate to get another Gretsch. If I ever buy a 'brand-new' guitar again, it'll likely be a MIJ Gretsch.

My 1981 Epiphone Emperor is another example of Japanese craftsmanship - it feels more 'Gibson' like than any newer Gibson I've played - it sounds the part too.

The luthier that repairs my guitars has spent a great deal of time with Gretsches- both new and vintage. He's of the view that the MIJ Gretsches are far superior to the vintage USA made guitars. Age hasn't been kind to the older USA guitars too - many need neck resets and have rotten binding.

He thinks VERY highly of the USA made custom shop instruments built by Stephen Stern. I had a play of a Stephen Stern built White Falcon, and it was an extraordinary guitar. It's one of those instruments I'll probably never forget - it was that good.

[feet]

Yes, the Gibson designs would be built to a far higher standard if this dream Gretsch-like maneuver ever took place.

Hell, Terada even used fret nibs on the Epi Byrdland - although executed better so the usable fret width was maintained. (Ironically Gibson claims to now maintain usable fret width with their new breakthrough “undercut” frets, which are thus nibless.)

but why would you want an mij byrdland when you could pay $4-6000 more for one that isn't as good? i have an elitist byrdland as well and never understood why people didn't like the nibs. guess other people were doing them wrong.

did a fair amount of modding, as is my wont, but i'll put that guitar up against anything. its the only guitar i played that made me mad i didn't own it. so i went back the next day and owned it.

i don't know how true the rumor is that gibson killed the elitist lines because it poached sales, but i can say i'd sooner trust an elitist than a gibson, sight unseen. and a better guitar for less than half of what the "real" one goes for? let's just say my arm got twisted a few times.

Gretsch is a USA company and I'd never buy a Gretsch that was not made in the USA. If I want a Japanese guitar I'll buy an Ibanez or Yamaha (and I have them).

and for $10,000, you can! but entrez details why i wouldn't. though i'd go custom shop if i could.

I can't fault my Japanese Gretsch G-400 - with the Vintage Vibe floating CC pickup, it's my main gigging guitar. I would not hesitate to get another Gretsch. If I ever buy a 'brand-new' guitar again, it'll likely be a MIJ Gretsch.

My 1981 Epiphone Emperor is another example of Japanese craftsmanship - it feels more 'Gibson' like than any newer Gibson I've played - it sounds the part too.

The luthier that repairs my guitars has spent a great deal of time with Gretsches- both new and vintage. He's of the view that the MIJ Gretsches are far superior to the vintage USA made guitars. Age hasn't been kind to the older USA guitars too - many need neck resets and have rotten binding.

He thinks VERY highly of the USA made custom shop instruments built by Stephen Stern. I had a play of a Stephen Stern built White Falcon, and it was an extraordinary guitar. It's one of those instruments I'll probably never forget - it was that good.

have you ever posted photos of that g400? i'm sure i've asked before. i just like looking at them, especially the modded ones. its interesting for me to see how people interpret the concept. mine is fairly modded but doesn't really look it.

i was in a store once and i plinked on a few custom shop jets and penguins to compare to the standard mij penguin. i didn't dare plug them in because i was terrified of what would happen if i did but even acoustically, there was an evident difference. it was like comparing a new acoustic to a vintage one that had opened up already. hard to know how much of that holds after age, mods and amps come into play, but there was a fundamental difference. luckily i'm ok with what i have, but i occasionally wonder about commissioning something. i'm fortunate to never be able to afford it, though.

80s mij epiphones used to be pretty affordable but i think that either the secret is out, or people just want more money for them. there used to be a lot in that $1000-1300 range, and sometimes less, but not anymore.

[entresz]

have you ever posted photos of that g400? i'm sure i've asked before. i just like looking at them, especially the modded ones. its interesting for me to see how people interpret the concept. mine is fairly modded but doesn't really look it.

Hello Feet - This is my Gretsch. The CC pickup is brilliant too- it really compliments the guitar tonally and aesthetically.

[ptchristopher3]

but why would you want an mij byrdland when you could pay $4-6000 more for one that isn't as good? i have an elitist byrdland as well and never understood why people didn't like the nibs. guess other people were doing them wrong.

did a fair amount of modding, as is my wont, but i'll put that guitar up against anything. its the only guitar i played that made me mad i didn't own it. so i went back the next day and owned it.

i don't know how true the rumor is that gibson killed the elitist lines because it poached sales, but i can say i'd sooner trust an elitist than a gibson, sight unseen. and a better guitar for less than half of what the "real" one goes for? let's just say my arm got twisted a few times.

I loathe the Gibson nibs. There are some (and the local “true believers” will be certain they have one) that are not truly abysmal. But so many have rounding that makes a mess of the fret ends, and often can not even be fixed with a re-fret.

But I have not re-fretted the Epi Byrdland. The nibs are idiotic in principle, but executed perfectly with no downside to speak of. Well there are downsides in principle, but I have no practical problems with them at all.

Mine is unmodded except for some minor component changes (knobs, strap buttons, tuner keys), and a nylon saddle on the high E.

I believe the “rumor” to be a total pant-load.

In terms of unimportant things, mine is a sunburst from 2003 thus the first year “Elite” vs. later Elitist.

The odd thing is the wood on the back. Asbestos I can tell, it has the same grain (as in appearing to be the same piece of wood) on the interior as on the exterior. I suppose some day I could try measuring grain features exactly to try to figure out what is going on there. It certainly seems to be presssed, and would likely be at least a two parallel-layer laminate. I feel it has no bearing on the sound, but is curious.

The sides are clearly laminate maple, and the top is the pressed spruce wth the parallel thin layer underneath.

Anyway, agreed that I would trust a Terada built guitar ‘sight-unseen’ vs. the Gibson experience.

Chris

[Jim Soloway]

Gibson had an average of 200 million in sales the last few years and has around 1000 workers. The data I saw for Gretsch estimated 60 wotkers and 10 millions in revenue. Hard to replicate the plan.

I was rather assuming that after a bankruptcy and reorganization, they could reemerge as a much smaller, leaner company with new ownership, no debt, smaller sales, more emphasis on building the best product possible and using the new efficiency to make a profit rather than continue building a loss on larger revenues.

[mr. beaumont]

Wishful thinking.

Would work for players, maybe...but guitar owners, Gibson's new purchase bread and butter, like that "made in u.s.a."

[jorgemg1984]

I was rather assuming that after a bankruptcy and reorganization, they could reemerge as a much smaller, leaner company with new ownership, no debt, smaller sales, more emphasis on building the best product possible and using the new efficiency to make a profit rather than continue building a loss on larger revenues.

That would be a great strategy - probably the best one. But maybe keeping the productuon in the US and using "Made in USA" as a marketing tool and as an excuse for a premium price? I bet a lot of people would be interested in buying just the brand and starting from scratch.

[Al_F]

Can't see how Gibson couldn't make money as a guitar manufacturing pure play, seems like Henry used the guitar business as a cash cow to finance acquisitions and that's what fucked up Gibson. No expert in this business but should look at rationalizing product line, do a pricing study see what happens if they lower their price a bit do sales increase, and fix their distribution model may be emulate what Collings or think about a direct to consumer model.

[feet]

Hello Feet - This is my Gretsch. The CC pickup is brilliant too- it really compliments the guitar tonally and aesthetically.

i'm not a single coil guy in general, but i find them intriguing on archtops. and from what little i know about it, i think the cc sounds pretty neat. and they look cool, too. heck, i came pretty close to inexplicably buying a g400c with two dynas and a bigsby on it, just because.

mine has a usa kent armstrong floating humbucker. you can really play up the acoustic or electric tones by messing with the volume and tone knobs i put it. you can be jazzy or strummy or almost pretend you have a falcon. quite surprised with what is possible.

I loathe the Gibson nibs. There are some (and the local “true believers” will be certain they have one) that are not truly abysmal. But so many have rounding that makes a mess of the fret ends, and often can not even be fixed with a re-fret.

But I have not re-fretted the Epi Byrdland. The nibs are idiotic in principle, but executed perfectly with no downside to speak of. Well there are downsides in principle, but I have no practical problems with them at all.

The odd thing is the wood on the back. Asbestos I can tell, it has the same grain (as in appearing to be the same piece of wood) on the interior as on the exterior. I suppose some day I could try measuring grain features exactly to try to figure out what is going on there. It certainly seems to be presssed, and would likely be at least a two parallel-layer laminate. I feel it has no bearing on the sound, but is curious.

mine must be of the elitist quality you mention because i don't see a downside as a player. they look cool. that's all. i get how they could be problematic if you need to dress or refret them, but i'm quite pleased with them and they don't feel any different than any other awesome guitar i've played.

i've noticed similar curiousites, as well. i'm like 80% my stupid untrained eye and a tiny mirror failed to locate the existence of strengthening layer of maple under the spruce or mismatched grain on the inside and outside of the back and top for both my g400 and byrdland. the g400 is from the 90s where anything could have happened, but i would have expected something different from the byrdland. i can only tell you that regardless of what is or isn't going on inside, they are both awesome and i couldn't be happier with either. well, the g400's neck is a little thin for my taste, but...

I was rather assuming that after a bankruptcy and reorganization, they could reemerge as a much smaller, leaner company with new ownership, no debt, smaller sales, more emphasis on building the best product possible and using the new efficiency to make a profit rather than continue building a loss on larger revenues.

maybe something like the all-new yet again guild usa? trashed everything and reemerged with a whole two models, learning on the fly with their most butt simple offerings and expanding the line only as they learned how to make a decent guitar again.

that would be disastrous for guild in most senses, but spending a few months cranking out juniors and learning how to finish and qc a guitar for once can't be a bad thing for the consumer.

[Herbie]

For many US citizens the question of Gibson seems to be very patriotic. For the rest of the world question in more about ’just’ one of the most legendary guitar companies.

In Japan there is very dedicated following for Gibson guitars. There have been many hi quality special runs of Les Pauls made primarly for Japanese market. The whole Burstbucker idea was developed after the research of a Japanese Gibson fan. And the praised ES-275 was too a result of the Gibson/Japan co-operation.

I don’t want to predict anything, I just hope that the passionate guitar makers in Gibson (there must be many of them) get a possibility of continuing their living, passion and a great tradition of luthierism. And if I can wish: making even better Gibsons with more reasonable price!

[mr. beaumont]

For many US citizens the question of Gibson seems to be very patriotic. For the rest of the world question in more about ’just’ one of the most legendary guitar companies.

In Japan there is very dedicated following for Gibson guitars. There have been many hi quality special runs of Les Pauls made primarly for Japanese market. The whole Burstbucker idea was developed after the research of a Japanese Gibson fan. And the praised ES-275 was too a result of the Gibson/Japan co-operation.

I don’t want to predict anything, I just hope that the passionate guitar makers in Gibson (there must be many of them) get a possibility of continuing their living, passion and a great tradition of luthierism. And if I can wish: making even better Gibsons with more reasonable price!

You do wonder what would happen if say, Gibson decided to move or close a factory, and the people who worked there just stayed behind and kept making instruments...oh, wait.

[feet]

the legacy?

the more you think about it the more interesting it is. will they continue to suck or will they finally be free to give the guitars the time and effort they require and they would theoretically now be able to provide and make instruments worthy of the name? and would they more to a thinner, straight pull headstock?

[goldenwave77]

Can't see how Gibson couldn't make money as a guitar manufacturing pure play, seems like Henry used the guitar business as a cash cow to finance acquisitions and that's what fucked up Gibson. No expert in this business but should look at rationalizing product line, do a pricing study see what happens if they lower their price a bit do sales increase, and fix their distribution model may be emulate what Collings or think about a direct to consumer model.

Monday morning quarterbacks are better than Tom Brady.

What Henry J. did was entirely rational...he took a grand company out of the Norlin doldrums, capitalized on a temporary US demographic bulge in demand, and used that as a springboard to diversify out of what was going to be a losing game long-term. (There are only SO many high-priced Les Pauls you can sell. Baby Boomers are now outnumbered by Millennials, and the latter aren't' terrifically impressed by Les Pauls, or even guitars for that matter.)

Moreover, he tried to make the best out of a US high cost-producer situation, and leverage its history, and its traditions to sell worldwide---"US made....World played." The jury is probably still out on this, I think.

How many guitars does Collings sell? Let's see where they are in 10 or 20 years. The reality is that even Orville Gibson didn't have that much to do with the Company we know, or the guitars we prize. HE was forced out, pretty early on. His idea....violin-style guitars and mandolins... caught on. Many more instrument companies (Gretsch, Epiphone, Vega) bite the dust than survive. And boutique makers of fifty years ago...how many besides D'Angelico and D'Acquisto are known, except among guitar aficionados?)

(The above comment re: cash cows and unprofitable guitar ventures is contradictory, on its face....but the explanation is the US demographic one. Now that card has been dealt and played, and it is a new tougher game that Gibson faces.)

That Gibson's diversification strategy didn't pan out is easy to say now....you might as well say that the giants of print media, brick and mortar retailing, major network television, & popular music were also stupid as well. None of them foresaw, or dealt well, with digitalization and its far-flung effects.

Maybe a US-based custom shop and Asian production is the way to go. I'm still bothered, though, by that 335 Orville I had. Stunningly good cosmetic copy, but the darn thing was just DOA--sound wise...dull and muffled. Shipped from Japan in good order, but a huge disappointment. The Memphis Gibson 339 I have is 2X the guitar, and a keeper...I bought it a few yrs. later for $1400, used, while the Orville was $1000, used. And my 2003 L4-CES is stunningly good. Again, a definite keeper. (My '78 Aria Pro II, is actually a very good gtr., and I well recognize that there are many good Asian instruments.)

Anyone know what Gibson's fiscal year is? Curious to see year-end financials, if these become available, or are reported on, in press.

[Woody Sound]

I was rather assuming that after a bankruptcy and reorganization, they could reemerge as a much smaller, leaner company with new ownership, no debt, smaller sales, more emphasis on building the best product possible and using the new efficiency to make a profit rather than continue building a loss on larger revenues.

Maybe get back to the old days, whittle the Les Paul models back down to 3 or so, etc.

[DRS]

High end Gibsons made in Japan?
It will never happen.
Gibson is the patriotic choice of all Bud and Jack drinking, NASCAR watching, Dallas Cowboy groovin' Americans.
They don't need to be made overseas - they just need a CEO with vision and the will to make good guitars. Look at PRS.