Modifying a 50s Gibson ES-225T

[Steve Z]

So I have been wanting a Gibson ES225 TDN for a while and just missed grabbing a '59 in great condition at a steal of a price... ugh to be a few hours late.

Anyway, there seems to be a abundance of the single pickup versions in sunburst. I recently located one that has all new parts on the old '59 sunburst body for a decent asking price.

Anyone ever modified an old laminate guitar? I was thinking possibly...
1) having the center single pickup removed, block to fill the hole
2) install a inset Charlie Christian pickup
3) refinish the top to hide the patched hole in the middle

Sure, the vintage value is gone. However, there is little value on this particular model and having found the body/neck shell at a reasonable price this seemed like a possible project to get a great playing hollowbody thinline Gibson for under $2,000.

Another idea would be to add a pickguard mounted CC and just leave the Center p90 or remove the p90 and leave the hole.

[Steve Z]

I have seen the mod adding two pickups to create an ES-5 type of vibe, but that seems a bit crowded...

[ptchristopher3]

The “refinish the top to hide” is the part that requires near miracles. It seems a long way to go simply to have the word “Gibson” on the guitar.

For under $500 get a recent Epi Sorrento and play.

[sgosnell]

Filling that pickup hole is a major, major piece of woodworking. If I were doing it, I'd leave the pickup in place and just add a neck pickup. I don't like a bridge pickup anyway, and I suspect I'd like hearing the two of those together better than a standard neck/bridge combo. But of course it's not my guitar, and I'm not doing the mods. i promise not to hate you whatever you do to it.

[Steve Z]

The “refinish the top to hide” is the part that requires near miracles. It seems a long way to go simply to have the word “Gibson” on the guitar.

For under $500 get a recent Epi Sorrento and play.

Good point. It's not a need to have Gibson though, it's more I really like the necks and feel of the guitars from that era. The newer Epi's etc seem to have a plastic-like feel to them.

Filling that pickup hole is a major, major piece of woodworking. If I were doing it, I'd leave the pickup in place and just add a neck pickup. I don't like a bridge pickup anyway, and I suspect I'd like hearing the two of those together better than a standard neck/bridge combo. But of course it's not my guitar, and I'm not doing the mods. i promise not to hate you whatever you do to it.

Ha! It's not my guitar yet either... just thinking aloud
Good point of the mix of the two pickups if just add the neck pickup. Wonder if the center pickup would get in the way... hmmm...

[AlohaJoe]

I'd wait for the one I really want. 225s come up now and then, and 125TDCs can be found in that price range too. I played a 225 w the single pup and loved it. The pickup wasn't in the "right" place but it sounded really good!

[Sam Sherry]

Having owned several ES-225s and also a Korean Sorrento, here's my take:

. One of those, a '56 single ES-225, was as good as the very best necks I've held. (The others were fine but not standouts. That's why it's great to try guitars before paying.) If you want the 50s neck have at it.

. Odds are you would have trouble telling a mid- to late-50s P90 from a generic medium-wind A5 P90 copy in a blind test. Note: Almost the entire InterWebz disagrees with the preceding statement.

. The ES-225 single pickup sounds nice. You can play a lot of music with it; people will think it sounds nice and they will be correct. It's much more like a P90 ES-175 than it is different from a P90 ES-175. But yeah, it's not precisely that. I say, "Appreciate it for what it is."

. As noted above, filling a pickup hole on an archtop goes better on PhotoShop than on wood. If you want a guitar with a pickup in a different spot your best bet is to buy one.

. The ES-225 integrated tailpiece / bridge was not as nice for me as the separate tailpiece and BRW bridge.

. After a couple of years I started to feel like ES-225s were just . . . kinda . . . stubby. Things changed and I moved on. Again, that's why it's great to try guitars before paying.

I hope that this is some help.

[ThatRhythmMan]

If you decide to go for it, swap out that tailpiece for one of the usual variety and add a separate floating bridge. I’m pretty sure you will be much happier.

However, if it’s going to run you $2000, it would be probably easier to go with something else.

[omphalopsychos]

I kinda don't get it. If you don't mind giving up the resale value, why don't you just get a Heritage 525? Same guitar as the one you're attempting to make.

Or otherwise, why not get the 2 pickup 225? Yes, it's usually $2k more, but in the end you're spending about the same amount of money. Here's my rationale:

In scenario 1, you get the 2 pickup 225. It costs you $4k. You can resell it some day for $4k. Sink the money now, get it back.

In scenario 2, you get the 1 pickup 225 and mod it. You spend $2k on the guitar. But then by modding it you throw away the $2k resale value of the guitar. You're not going to get any of that money back. In a sense you've actually spent much more money than you would have on the 2 pickup version.

The third option is to get a Gibson 330. CME had some overstock for sale going as low as $1840. I almost got one but I really really don't need it.

[docbop]

My buddie has a ES 330 with single P90 in that poition and it sound great, I've heard a couple others and equally great sound. Hate to see a good guitar ruined by doing what your talking about. I'm with omphalopsychos on this one why not call Hertiage and get they to build you a 525 with a CC pup. You'll have a fine guitar, the top will still sound good from not being filled are cut up again.

[Flat]

I hear ya', SteveZ. I've got a 1958 ES-225 with the pickup in the middle. And it's such a great guitar! Sunburst. Vintage vibe to the core. And the Best Neck Ever. Mahogany grain so peppery sweet it feels good just to look at it. And it sounds really sweet as well.

I would love that guitar so much more if I could just slide that P-90 a little north, out of range of my right hand pick and fingers, and to get a mellower fatter tone. It would be that much closer to the vintage ES-330 I wish it was...even better, because I like single-cuts...

But I have long since considered and abandoned the notion, probably due to wise input from this forum.

I could add a neck pickup, but the middle pickup would still be in my way.

I suppose you could do this surgery if you just really didn't care what the heck it looked like. Go with the popular duct tape option to conceal the hole. But I had to concede in my case that it would never look "right."

It is such a sweet guitar that I decided I would just have to play it as it lays, so to speak, or let it go. It's been on the planet almost as long as I have. (And I hate it when they cut holes in me! ;-)

I've got a TOM bridge on mine, but I am putting the original big trapeze tailpiece back on. To me, it's a trade-off between authenticity and intonation. I oscillate. And I'm putting some period correct tuners on it, just cuz.

Whatever you decide to do, good luck!

[Steve Z]

I hear ya', SteveZ. I've got a 1958 ES-225 with the pickup in the middle. And it's such a great guitar! Sunburst. Vintage vibe to the core. And the Best Neck Ever. Mahogany grain so peppery sweet it feels good just to look at it. And it sounds really sweet as well.

I would love that guitar so much more if I could just slide that P-90 a little north, out of range of my right hand pick and fingers, and to get a mellower fatter tone. It would be that much closer to the vintage ES-330 I wish it was...even better, because I like single-cuts...

But I have long since considered and abandoned the notion, probably due to wise input from this forum.

I could add a neck pickup, but the middle pickup would still be in my way.
...

Flat, you summed up my thoughts on the 225 precisely. I'm pretty sure that I will pass on my modification plans, but the question will always stay... "Gibson, what were you thinking placing the pickup in the middle? "


Appreciate the other member comments as well to try and keep my "junior high shop class" instincts from carving up a guitar

[whiskey02]

Could you not simply replace the guard with one with a mounted floating p90? It would cost a fraction of cutting into the top while maintaining the all original value. Have you played this guitar or similar model, do you know for fact that the pup placement ruins this guitar for you? I just can’t understand paying 2k for a guitar, another 2k to alter it into a guitar that is worth less than 2k???

[Woody Sound]

[FONT=Verdana]but the question will always stay... "Gibson, what were you thinking placing the pickup in the middle? "

Maybe it wasn't meant as a jazz guitar? Gets a nice blues/country/rockabilly tone. Check this out at about :50.

[Steve Z]

Could you not simply replace the guard with one with a mounted floating p90? It would cost a fraction of cutting into the top while maintaining the all original value. Have you played this guitar or similar model, do you know for fact that the pup placement ruins this guitar for you? I just can’t understand paying 2k for a guitar, another 2k to alter it into a guitar that is worth less than 2k???

Yes, the thought of just adding a replacement pickguard with floating CC is an option. The $2,000 would be total for the guitar and mods.
Yes, I have played this model... love the neck! Not so much the pickup placement. As others have said, perhaps just wait for a good deal on a ES225TDN. I just missed one in fantastic condition with original case for $3,200

It was just like this guitar (though not this actual guitar)...

[Steve Z]

There is a '58 ES-225TDN on eBay right now, unfortunately it has a nasty looking neck break that has been repaired and replacement pickups. If the neck break was not on the guitar, the replacement pickups would be no issue for me as its the neck and body feel that I really dig.

asking $2,750 -- though I wouldn’t pay that much...

Any neck break experts? Seems this should be an issue...

[Steve Z]

So, I emailed the seller of the '58 ES-225 TDN with the broken headstock... asked about the break, if same guitar as also listed on Craigslist, etc.

Hi Steve, It's the same guitar. I only have the one. Ink stamp inside the body T6479 24 and ES 225 TDN. So, 1958. The break didn't go through the face plate. It was already repaired when I purchased it. The repair has been done very well. I've owned the guitar less than a year. It does show a small crack, but it doesn't require repair. Everything is very secure with the guitar. It's a great guitar, really.

Headstock breaks sort of freak me out, but then I here stories that a properly repair headstock break is stronger than before. Wish it didn't also have the side crack.

[Jorge_70]

[Woody Sound]

Well, he would need the shorter one

[Meggy]

I had a broadly similar issue with my Ibanez JP20 and went the route of fitting a floating CC-style pickup to a pickguard made by me (to avoid cutting into the original pickguard). I fixed a little 3 way toggle under the pickguard to select either or both pickups, which gives some useful extra tones, although the CC on it's own is a clear favourite. Thread here anyhow, with some pics of the process, just FWIW JP20 with John Anthony Guitars CC pickup - better final pics

[Jabberwocky]

I would just leave it as it is and play it as it is. OK, I may swap the tailpiece crossbar for the Mojoaxe compensated wraparound trapeze crossbar or the entire tailpiece. MojoAxe Custom Guitar Parts

If the P90 gets in the way of the right hand, remove it and save it carefully. You could have someone make a small celluloid plate that fits over the hole nicely with your name engraved on it. Ha! Use the same P90 mounting holes, of course. Nobody would ever guess there is a hole beneath the plate. You could also mount a P90 dogear cover upside down and underneath the top; insert the mounting screws through the top.

The Vintage Vibe floating CC pickup is a great idea and receives the Jabberwhackov seal of approval.

[Steve Z]

Since this thread is about modifying a ES-225T....

...this video features Lindy demonstrating his new Hum Cancelling P-90's in a mid 50's Gibson ES225. The guitar is a workhorse test mule for Lindy and it features Hum Cancelling P-90s in the neck and bridge, but a traditional P-90 single coil in the middle. ...

[md54]

I am looking at an ES-225. Not keen on the les paul bridge tail idea.
How difficult is it to convert to typical 175 125 type?
Or. A 330 type fixed bridge?

[zizala]

I converted my '57 ES-225 using an original floating Gibson 50's rosewood bridge and the usual stock "raised diamond" trapeze tailpiece that was in use at that time.

The base plate on the original "Les Paul" style bridge/tailpiece is the same shape and size as the Gibson trapeze shown, but the endpin hole and screw locations are a little different.
I went to the trouble of modifying and installing a new base plate on an extra trapeze I had, to match the original Les Paul type just so I could use the same mounting holes rather than drill new ones.
Should I sell the 225 one day, I'd like to put it back together as original for the next person who may appreciate the guitar unmodified.

If you don't want to bother with that bit of trouble, than one has to find and position a tailpiece....and will likely need to fill and redrill the endpin hole and redrill the 3 mounting screw holes to match the replacement trapeze. So not a simple swap.....unless you don't need an endpin!

I had a tune-o-matic saddle on that rosewood base for awhile and it was quite good, but preferred the rosewood saddle for my purposes.

I had no problem with the original as far as intonation, but didn't like the metallic sounding string attack I could hear coming from that wrap around bar.

I believe during the last year or two of production some ES-225's came set up like this from the factory, but someone here might know better than I do.

Hope this helps!

[customxke]

Some of the later (1959) ES-225s came from the factory with a separate tailpiece and bridge.