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One of my archtops is an Eastman 910 w/a K.A. floater mounted to the pick guard. It's very clean sounding but brighter than I'd like. Kent has been very helpful to me and I'm not blaming him for how this Eastman sounds. Despite claims to the contrary, these are not top of the line guitars. It plays like a dream and I love the look of the classic finish but NOT its fragility.
All that chinese maple is a bit bright for my tastes. [I've had the guitar for more than 5 years. There are two tiny thumb wheel pots, and the sound changes too quickly as the wiper moves. I'm not sure if a higher ohm value might help with the tone. I'm not much of a tech when it comes to electronics.
I recently heard..... on line .... two very good sounding Heritage guitars demoed by Rich Severson. I'm aware of the pitfalls of making choices based only on unknown signal paths. The pickups were Seymour Duncans. Don't know the particulars but I can find out from Rich after the holidays. I'd be very pleased to get a pickup that sounded that good. What might I do to get a warmer sound out of the 910. I play with fingers but the calluses area factor in what I hear. My amp is a tube amp and I mostly play thru a vox tonelab at home. So I can tweek it in to something acceptable
You tube guys..... whose 12AX7 might help tame the brightness. I use AKG K712s w/the tonelab. I haven't gotten into trying some of the amp/speaker options yet.
RonLast edited by guitron45; 12-26-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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12-22-2017 02:12 AM
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I've had mixed results changing tubes on my Fender to try and 'tame' what I considered undesirable qualities of being overly loud in my relatively alive playing room. I'm not electronically inclined, but I read a lot on this forum about changing 12AX7's out for 'U', or 'Y''s etc., each representing a different power throttling effect in the pre-amp of my Hot Rod Deluxe. Finally, I took it up to someone at a local independent music store in Everett, Tommy's, and the tech checked the tubes with the appropriate measurement instruments and put it back in the appropriate specs after discovering a 'bad' tube I had somehow acquired. It sounds great now, but Since then, I've decided to let someone I trust to deal with the amp end of things. That's my experience. Good luck figuring it out.
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you might try changing out those thumbwheel pots for some schattens..even if you wind up changing pickups, they are a step up in quality
Schatten Thumbwheel Controls | stewmac.com
i use a tonelab too..the cabinet simulation parameters realy affect the guitars timbre...try going thru them one at a time to dial in your best tone
lastly a floater on maple is always gonna be a tad bright...work with the controls on guitar and tonelab
luck
cheers
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Maybe a floating pickup guitar isn't the sound you're look for since the pickup is pretty much in a fixed position. An inset pickup you and lower it down to get a bigger sound.
Another alternative is do like the old Howard Roberts model guitars and Peter Bernstein's Zemaitis and a couple other that have a full size humbucker floating pickup. You're going to have to have on made no one makes one as a production model. I was looking for one earlier this year and Seymour Duncan was most reasonable about $200 to make one. Other companies wouldn't do it saying getting the parts for the case is too hard.
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Floaters tend to be bright and docbop makes a good point. You might ponder whether you really want a different guitar design entirely to get the sound you want.
Pete Biltoft and Kent Armstrong can both custom wind full sized neck-mounted pickups for less that Seymour Duncan and gauge them to fit your axe. They are both quite priced reasonably- cheaper than Seymour Duncan in my experience- and very happy to talk with you about what you want and how to get it. FWIW I think that a neck-mounted pickup is warmer than a pick guard-mounted one, all other things being the same, but it's an opinion and I have no scientific facts to back that up. Other than to my ears Johnny Smith style pickups sound warmer neck-mounted than pick guard-mounted. I have a neck-mounted Biltoft CC that sounds fat and warm, in contrast to the bright and clear Armstrong PAF-0 floater that was on that guitar earlier. Funny, I have heard other people get great warm and fat tones out of that pickup but I never could. Hence:
The native tone of the guitar itself is also very important. Eastmans, following in the Benedetto tradition of guitars, are often very bright. Gibsons are usually dark or at least dark-ish. Modern carved archtops in general tend to be bright and even piercing these days in contrast with say vintage D'Angelicos. Tastes in guitar tone have changed over the decades. My guitar tends to be Benedetto-ish an was very bright with a mini-humbucker and the Armstrong PAF-0.
When I had talked with Kent Armstrong about my PAF-0 being way too bright and even harsh on my guitar, he suggested using a 500k volume pot, a 250k tone pot and a 33 cap. That did help knock down the highs and round them off a bit. This is pretty easy to do and not very expensive. A parametric EQ pedal like the Empress might be an alternative.
And of course the amp is another key factor in tone. I find the usual Fender blackface/silverface tone stack to emphasize brightness and bassness. I have a tweed Deluxe that has a lot more mids and a bit too much bass, but the highs are nice and round and warm. I have an AI Clarus which really lets me find a balanced tone that I like, although it sounds more acoustic than electric. With my archtop that's the best amp choice so far.
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I find the Lil' Dawg WonderDawg is a great amp for the Eastman instruments. It is a blackface era single channel deluxe clone with a mid circuit from a super that fits in a princeton 12" cab. It has a great warm creamy tone that works wonderfully with my AR910CE and AR371CE (DiMarzio 36th equiped...)
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One question that hasn't been asked: What strings are you currently using?
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D`Addario Flats Hybrid set 13 17 20 28 38 48. What amazing good suggestions. I have to come back tomorrow to finish up my thank yous. I'm limited in my time tonite.
Ron
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I find the D'Addario strings rather bright. Moving to a darker set might make you happier with your tone for a whole lot less money...
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Maple can be one reason.
A pickup another reason. I had a great floater PAF from Pete Biltoft once.
And one overlooked & underestimated option is Shadows Attila Zoller pickup. I had one once in my maple Epiphone Emperor Regent. Loved the sound – but wasn’t ready for a black pu in a traditional looking guitar.
SH AZ-48 Attila Zoller Floating Jazz Pickup – Shadow Electronics
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Is the KA pickup one of the stock ones? There are mass produced Asian KA pickups and then there are hand made KA pickups. The former are serviceable but the latter are special and sound very different. When I got my 2005 805ce I had the same issues with brightness (and they had an even worse stock pickup back then so it was more than just that problem) and tried a number of different pickups. I tried several pickups on that guitar and the best matches were a neck pickup from a GB10, an old Benedetto floater from the 90s and a handwound KA floating PAF (the 12 pole one). All of them had different sounds that improved the electric sound of the guitar in different ways but the floating PAF was the best and it ended my pickup search. It suits that naturally bright Eastman sound since it takes it and balances it and also has more of a full sized pickup sound vs. a mini humbucker sound since it does approach the size of a full humbucker.
One other thing worth mentioning is not that the guitar is about 12 years old it has mellowed out quite a bit. So play it a lot and it will tame the sound over time. But I do always recommend that pickup to Eastman guys.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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I'm a latecomer to Eastman gits, and overall I have to disagree with "these are not top of the line guitars" The two I have are top notch in every measurable way. Is the finish delicate? Maybe but I'm not fussy about a ding or scratch, and I brought this very issue up several years ago (link below) and ultimately bought two Eastman models (and will likely get one more) despite the remote possibility of finish problems.
Originally Posted by guitron45
Eastman finish issue?
As far as pups go, maybe in the past Eastman may have selected some less than wonderful pickups, but recently they have upped their game and started to think about others like Duncans. I can't fault a startup company for their pup selections to save money.Last edited by GNAPPI; 12-26-2017 at 04:03 PM.
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If anything, I think a thin finish like Eastman uses enhances the tone. A thick poly finish is certainly durable, but many think it deadens the tone. Whatever the finish, it's a compromise of some sort, and different manufacturers come to different compromises. I think the finish on my Eastman is somewhat thinner and more fragile than on most of my other guitars, but that's not necessarily all bad. I wouldn't dismiss a guitar based solely on that. Eastmans have a brighter tone than some competitors, and that's mostly because they're copies of Benedettos, as closely as they can get in most areas. It's a design choice, and while not everyone will prefer it, it's a valid choice. There are lots and lots of Gibson copies available, and it's good that there are other choices. Different people have different preferences, and Gibson is not the universal ideal. Nor is Benedetto, or any other brand.
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As far as the pots go, lower ohm values will bleed off more treble frequencies, resulting in a sound most people refer to as "warmer." This is why 250k pots are commonly used with "bright" single coil pickups and 500k pots are commonly used with "warm" humbuckers. Also, if you find the tone (or volume) changes too quickly as you roll off the pots, you might want to change from audio taper (what you probably have now) to linear taper pots. With linear taper, you get a slower change through most of the sweep, followed by a rather abrupt change at the end. This can work well for people who mostly keep everything on 10, but want a small rolloff sometimes.
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What you consider as bright might be different to my ears. Anyway, I have an Eastman AR810 CE which is a pretty good archtop, I think. I didn't like the stock pickups, so changed these to handwound KA with Schatten pots. My alternative would have been Häussel pickups from Germany. I might have preferred these. People who know say they sound dryer than KA. Originally Posted by guitron45
I also used d'Addario 13s (thought roundwounds) but recently changed these to 11s which I like much better. You could give that a try too.
What I didn't expect was the impact of the pick. I used Dunlop Jazz III, Stubby, and then Jazztone, which I liked most. But recently I bought a few handmade 'Pleks' picks from Italy. These are not cheap things, but I never realized a pick can make such a difference in sound. I was so excited about these picks that I showed them to two jazz guitar teachers here in town and they both ordered some. It made my Eastman finally sound like it should.
You are right about the finish. Scratches are almost unavoidable.
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Hey guys, first post here– my question pretty much falls into the topic of this thread.
I've got an Eastman 910ce as well, with the KA floating pickup that the original poster mentioned. I'm not sure if this pickup is the handmade or more mass-produced one: * WD Music Products - KENT ARMSTRONG® JAZZY JOE - JAZZ PICKUP W/ADJUSTABLE POLES - SIDE MOUNT GOLD.
Anyway, I just got a Benedetto s-6 as an unsolicited but much-appreciated Christmas gift. What could I expect in differences in sound if I switch to this pickup? Will it be an undeniable step up, or just something different?
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No, the stock KA one is not the handmade. It is the same one I replaced. I don't know the Benedetto, so I cannot comment on that. I am sure there will be threads about that one too
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The Benedetto S6 is a fine pickup.
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I emailed Shadow, nothing, tried calling, checked the number several times and still got some totally different company that had no interest in anything but leaving messages cuz they are so covered up with biddniss. Shadow SEEMED to have a return policy for their pickups. It's high time someone did this.
It's pretty difficult to hurt a pickup by playing the guitar it's on. And it's not that hard to replace the wires or just snip off the soldiered end. I would have given the Zoller a try....... but there are plenty of other choices out there. They don't seem interested in dealing with me.
I am very impressed with the help and suggestions from everyone. Thank you very much. Once I got done feeling sorry for my self over the death of my ToneLab I tried plugging into my priceton clone that was built from a kit. A kind soul at the Webber amp build forum was following my travails with this kit an emailed an offer to fix the amp for 50 bux if I mailed it to him. I jumped at that cuz the guy was highly regarded by the other builders on the forum. Sent it off to Saint Louis and got back a very nice sounding point to point built amp with all upgraded components and a Mercury transformer dead quiet and warm as fresh toast. It's sort of like a Princeton but w/two power tubes. Playing standards with it is almost a crime cuz anywhere past 5 on the volume and it wants to boogie till the cows come home. I tried to give this guy more money when I heard the amp but he wouldn't hear of it. So I'm pretty happy with the way the 910 sounds thru it.
I still maintain these are not as high quality as Eastman would like us to think.
I've have had more than a few of their archtops and I've never had one that didn't have a bad tuning peg on it or a dead note somewhere. ....and a thumpy dead note here and there they can sound very good and mine are a thrill to play, The Paisano .... same thing. Tuners that suck.... [[ I have an 80's MIJ PM 100 that has perfect tuners and sounds great and is just about bullet proof. I just wish the neck was wider]]. I like the the 880 pretty well but I'd rather have one of the ones they give the people they sponsor.
Ron
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Build quality of my Eastman is pretty good, but I agree it cannot compare to MIJ. I have a Seventy Seven which is in a different category. I play that one most of the time.
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I don’t think anyone one else suggested it, but you may find a JAN 5751 in V1 as as a great substitute for your 12AX7. It has 70% of the gain of the stock preamp tube. This has had the most dramatic change I found after rolling a lot of tubes.
This is the one I put into my SuperSonic 22: www.thetubestore.com - JAN-GE 5751 Audio Tubes
It turned the vintage channel, based on the Deluxe, into a warm sounding jazzy amp. It made the “Burn” usable for other than melting jet-age plastic.
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I play a guitar with the Shadow AZ48 on it. It IS a darker sounding pickup than others I have tried. (I like it very much.) Sorry that the OP has had difficulty with the company. I have no idea about customer service because I haven't needed it. If I were to need another AZ48, I would find one online.
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Hello Stevus, I should have been more specific re: Eastman Quality. Some real quality control at the factory would make a world of difference in how these instruments are perceived by archtop players. If your going to pretend you flagship guitar is worth 3400.00 it shouldn't arrive with tuners that don't turn like a good tuner should turn. OR... anyone remember the early hype on Eastman's site? `Superb craftsmanship yada yada' "every note rings like a bell" I remember it vert well. Cuz I was dumb enough to take the word of a biddniss person. That verbiage cost them some money so it's gone now. I have three eastmans none of which can live up to that claim. The PM 100 can and it's mostly plywood.
I don't think Eastman knows who their market is. First let me say.... many of these guitars are worthy of the term parlor guitar. And if they were only played in the parlor they couldn't build them fast enough.
It is my feeling that people buying these guitars are looking for something to gig with that looks right and sounds good enough for a jazz gig rather than take a 9k and up, guitar to a 250.00 job.
This is where that beautiful finish begins to pale. I mean that literally, ever scratch one of these???? the wood is fish belly white! They put the color in the lacquer! The Eastman reps can spin all they want, I think it's about money and only money. Why would anyone go to the trouble of making a guitar [ fairly thin top, very thin finish W/floater ] that is going to scream like a banshee the first time you plug in to an amp at a gig? The only way to stop the feed back is to fill it with cotton and rely on the pickup and amp to deliver the tone.... or NOT.
I am not very happy with this company or some of it's dealers. There is a guy named Lou R. on the east coast who sold me an EL REY II that he stated at least two different times at least, cuz it's the main reason I buy these guitars... ONE POINT SEVEN FIVE INCHES AT THE NUT. It showed up at 1/116's. I did not discover it right away ,I was traveling w/o that instrumen, he never took one of my calls when I got back. I called Mark Herrington at Eastman.... I gave him my sad story and he said. I quote, "it's the luck of the draw some guy at the factory grabbed a neck out of the wrong box." Luck of the Ff**King DRAW??
I'm beginning to see why corporations hire mercenaries to hang around in the lobby.
I should also tell you in the interest of fairness. The El Rey was the first Eastman guitar I saw in a music store. Love at first sight. Otto did a very fine job with the shape and look of that guitar.
I think I've had 4 o 5 of these and sent them all back, one at a time as they arrived. They would crack the finish in the cut away area. After months of me being the bad guy it got around that they re oriented the grain of the block there in the neck joint area and the cracking went away.
In my dealings with Eastman I was accused of living in an area that was causing the cracking. I live in a house my wife and I built with 14" thick exterior walls and 10 inch interior walls. It's called thermal mass in some circles. It takes a lot to change the temp in here. The humidity it generally below 30% I changes when storms come thru but not usually dramatically or long enough to warp glued up wood as in a guitar. Actually I believe it was Otto, the designer of the El Rey who eventually told me about them changing the block grain.
Ron
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Guitron45,
Amen. Nobody wants to take a $9K guitar to a $250 gig. That's what decent Asian archtops and partscasters are for. I gig with an old Aria (Memphis actually, but same guitar) and a parts-Tele.
An Eastman would work fine for me.
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Well I wish I was a competent tube circuitry guy. Weber warns all 6A14 kit buyers[I think that's the right identifier for this build, not to try this build if it's your first one. It was but I had a buddy who is an electronics guy who said" it's been 40 years but I think we'll be alright. We were not but he gave it a valiant try. The aerospace guy in St. Louis could make a fortune if he wanted to build amps to sell. He does'nt.
I have a buddy Dale X Allen who used to own a music store and recording studio in Austin. We were neighbors for a few years here in central New Mexico. He's a good guitar player to say the least and has two or three of all the good stuff a savvy picker would write bad cheques to own. including several of each of all the vintage Fender, to die for amps. I chose that build because of the sound of his very old Princeton.
He flipped out when I brought this amp to his house. i mean a lot! He crawled all over it. Telly, strat, gibson and a Dan Electro or two.. All were awesome thru it. And it has a ceramic 12" Webber speaker in the stock cabinet. I'm not a speaker guy either but was told this one would work well in the build.
It seems to. But I will try that tube you suggest. I know enough to know it won't hurt anything to swap out the tubes while the amp is off.
Because I mentioned swapping the tube in the tonelab, I'm wondering which box you refer to. I'm guessing the 6A14 build cuz there rest of the tonelab is all Chinese junk mostly. You know I never once used the expression pedal. I just had it as a practice amp. Got a Digitek 360 something or other to practice with. Supposed to be here tomorrow. I'm not expecting a lot tho in the late 80s or early 90s I had a rack mount Digitek something or other with a long floor set of stomp switches. Got some of the best guitar sounds I'd heard at the time. There is some high dollar new thing amp fex maybe the demos on line were awesome. So was the asking price.
BTW Dale has several CDs out one is Genuine Cow Hyde. He writes edgy songs with southwestern settings. Good player in a rock gig too.
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