Archtop string issues - anyone use a plain third on their archtop?

[Meggy]

...for I am thinking of doing this.

Tried my newly refurbished and new CC-pickup added-to Ibanez JP20 out at a gig last night. I had fitted a set of D'Addario Chromes flatwounds 13-56 no less, thinking that I should give the traditional type jazz archtop setup/sound a proper go. But with the best will in the world, I don't think these are my type of strings - I like more edge and zing on the attack, and although I work on my alternate picking, I do use a fair bit of hammer ons/pull offs, plus like to put in an occasional bluesy bend or bit of vibrato (or both). I have 11's roundwounds on all my other guitars.

Anyhow, decided today to put a set of GHS Brite Flats (half rounds) 11-50 gauge on the guitar today. And things do seem a lot more to my taste - the guitar still has a fair bit of acoustic volume, and I don't think I've lost the archtop character. But also it's more fluid to play, and more suited to my technique. Possibly the bottom 3 strings could be a little heavier, like going to a 52 low E maybe, but also I not sure about the 22 gauge wound 3rd - it's OK, but I think I might like an 18 plain on there. It would be a bit of a faff to do, but I'm thinking perhaps the ideal for me will be to buy D'Addario Half Rounds 12's sets and replace the top 3 strings with 11, 14 & 18 gauge, all plain.

Anyone else do anything similar? How does it work out if so?

[johnnyjazz]

I have a wound g on the b and the b on the e, all medium flat wounds, thats the way i play. Works for me.

[stringmaster]

I have Thomastik Flats on 3 of my guitars--my main gigging guitar has the .012 set, but I swap the wound G for a plain .019 (I'm primarily a blues player) and it works out really well. The other two retain the wound G (.012's on one and .013's on the other). For a roundwound set I also like the Thomastik BeBops--the .012 set comes with a plain 3rd--you might try those, but note the the wound strings are lighter than the typical .012 sets.

[omphalopsychos]

Wouldn’t volume balance be an issue with a blade pickup.

[Meggy]

I have a wound g on the b and the b on the e, all medium flat wounds, thats the way i play. Works for me.

You're a better man than I am johnnyjazz

[Meggy]

Wouldn’t volume balance be an issue with a blade pickup.

Maybe, but to be honest I doubt it, at least speaking for myself. I have trouble with string balance when I tried pure nickel wound string, but as long as I stick to some sort of nickel steel, or steel alloy, things seem to work. And people do use plain 3rd sets with other types of blade pickup after all.

[Meggy]

I have Thomastik Flats on 3 of my guitars--my main gigging guitar has the .012 set, but I swap the wound G for a plain .019 (I'm primarily a blues player) and it works out really well. The other two retain the wound G (.012's on one and .013's on the other). For a roundwound set I also like the Thomastik BeBops--the .012 set comes with a plain 3rd--you might try those, but note the the wound strings are lighter than the typical .012 sets.

Appreciate the info, thanks @stringmaster

[D.G.]

I use round wounds and a plain 3rd on my electric archtops, i.e. my Guild T-50 and Aristocrat. Both use p90's. On my acoustics -- Eastman 905 and Dupont DM50 -- it's a wound 3rd.

[Meggy]

Just returned from doing a restaurant gig using the guitar with the GHS Brite Flats 11s set. Everything sounded great - about the best jazz tone I've had, certainly haven't had any better, and this is a venue that I've previously found it hard for getting the sound right. Didn't notice any issues with the wound third either - so embarrassed to say I didn't need to start this thread, and GHS Brite Flats 11s would seem to be my best choice for strings. Wasted some money trying the Chromes 13s as well, ah well. Thanks for taking the time to read and indeed reply, those that did.

[deacon Mark]

I would never use a wound 3rd period but depending on what you need to accomplish.

[neatomic]

if you like "edge and zing"..flats might not be the string for you..it's okay!! hah...chromes are about the brightest (most zingy) flats out there

next try a set of old school round inner core pure nickel roundwounds...like dr pure blues, thomastik bebops etc


the roundwound will give you that zing, but the round inner core/pure nickel wrap combinationl will keep it jazzy warm


you can always buy some single strings..and replace your gauges as you like them..but type of wind, wrap material and inner core variations are all essential


luck


cheers

[krusty]

Try the D'Addario NYXL rounds with the wound 3rd. Great strings.

[jazzbow]

Hey Megs.

That's another thing with modding guitars is finding the right string set that the guitar needs.

My modded telecaster (humbucker sized CC pickup) had flatwound Thomastik and chrome 12's. I found the plain third had a janky overtone, even with three different saddle materials and eventual spot filing on the frets!

I put on a 26w third from a Picato flatwound 13 set and the overtone disappeared. Queer.

So I eventually put on 12 pure nickels with a wound third and discovered aural heaven. No overtone and it warmed up the sound on the CC. Nice.

But hey, you got there and found the string set, hurrah!

Fanfare..........

Hurrah. (My next tune).

[Meggy]

if you like "edge and zing"..flats might not be the string for you..it's okay!! hah...chromes are about the brightest (most zingy) flats out there

next try a set of old school round inner core pure nickel roundwounds...like dr pure blues, thomastik bebops etc


the roundwound will give you that zing, but the round inner core/pure nickel wrap combinationl will keep it jazzy warm


you can always buy some single strings..and replace your gauges as you like them..but type of wind, wrap material and inner core variations are all essential


luck


cheers

Thanks neatomic - to be truthful, I've been down some of these roads before - with the flats, I tried them one more time thinking that so many people love them for the jazz tone, and it is the classic thing for jazz, so I must have missed something. Maybe it's me, maybe it's that they don't work so well with the guitar, but (yet again) it didn't work out - not a disaster, but just not right for me anyhow, and it only took me a day to rediscover that one!

I've had pure nickel strings on guitars before too, and again not for me - the wound strings always seem too quiet, or at least too much of a different tone, for me. I know a lot of people love those too, so just one of those things.

Anyhow, I do appreciate you trying, but really I'm now more sure than ever that half rounds are my thing for this guitar - I've them before, and should have stuck with them. Going down to an 11s gauge set is an improvement for me though, so that is a useful discovery - somehow I always thought they'd be too light for an archtop, but they work great.

[Meggy]

Try the D'Addario NYXL rounds with the wound 3rd. Great strings.

Cheers, actually I may try them on one or more of my other guitars - Ibanez AS103 semi-acoustic for one.

[Meggy]

Hey Megs.

That's another thing with modding guitars is finding the right string set that the guitar needs.

My modded telecaster (humbucker sized CC pickup) had flatwound Thomastik and chrome 12's. I found the plain third had a janky overtone, even with three different saddle materials and eventual spot filing on the frets!

I put on a 26w third from a Picato flatwound 13 set and the overtone disappeared. Queer.

So I eventually put on 12 pure nickels with a wound third and discovered aural heaven. No overtone and it warmed up the sound on the CC. Nice.

But hey, you got there and found the string set, hurrah!

Fanfare..........

Hurrah. (My next tune).

Cheers jazzbow - playing the guitar this morning, and the GHS Brite Flats set really seems perfect now, wound 3rd and all. Actually the 22 gauge wound 3rd is light enough to still allow decent vibrato and useable for bends. So I will be sticking to those. The guitar honestly sounded glorious last night at the restaurant gig, plenty warm enough through Polytone Minibrute 2 amp. Some noise/hum being picked up by the CC pickup, and the venue does have all sorts of lighting systems and other circuits around, but most of the time it wasn't audible due to all the chatter from the tables.

So wasted some money trying the Chromes, and I've wasted money in the past trying various things too - not a total waste if the search leads to something good in the end of course.

edit - love Spike btw

[BFrench]

Hey Meggy, just my 02 cents...have you considered ordering a customized set of strings? There's only a few brands that I've found that you can put together each individual string gauge exactly to your liking. It still takes a little experimentation to find the gauges that works to your liking.

After I bought my Eastman 372 I started researching string brands and tried 4 or 5 different brands of flats, several TI's, D'Addario, Pyramid, LaBella. I simply didn't like flats on the Eastman.

Then I found Newtone Strings – British Handmade Strings est.1985 which is located in the UK. You can put together a customized set thru these guys with each string gauge to your liking. Personally, they worked fine for what I was after but I'm in the states and they're located in the UK. Takes about a month to receive them, no biggie if you know exactly which gauges will work.

Recently I start ordering customized sets through Custom Electric Guitar Strings | Stringjoy located in Nashville, Tn...super nice folks and I'm able to put together exactly the individual string gauges that work for me and also on the Eastman. Personally customized set's for me is the only way to go. I never like pre-determined gauge sets most every string manufacturer makes. It works much better for me to let the tone, guitar playability and fingers make the final individual string gauge decision rather than letting a pre-set string gauge (10's-11's-12's) make the decision.

[mad dog]

I'm no performer in the jazz realm. My string experimentation has been in practicing. Tried flats, half rounds, heavier guages (than .12 on the high E for example.) What sounds and feels best to me is a custom set of roundwounds, pieced together from Just Strings bulk sets:

High E: .12 plain
B: .15 plain
G: .20 plain
D: .30 wound
A: .40 wound
E: .50 wound

This set was suggested by my trusted luthier friend George, as he did a fret dress set up on my first high quality archtop, a Heritage H575 custom. Which has a wooden bridge apparently carved for the plain third. As I got other archtops (Heritage H525, Dearmond T400, Silvertone 1427, that set continued to be the right choice. In part because the bridges cooperated.

Now also playing Anton's lovely '62 Guild X50, I encounter a wooden bridge that requires the wound third. So I found a set that nearly works for my preferred guages, the John Pearse Acoustic/Electric nickle wound jazz light, .011 - .050, then substiture in a .12 on the high E, and a wound .21 for the G. Not sure yet if I can go with the wound G. It's harder to push around, to slur, pull off. Quieter in volume than I'd like. But has it's own sound. Someday maybe I'll try a different wooden bridge and the plain G.
MD

[citizenk74]

GHS Brite Flats are excellent strings, IMHO.

[Cunamara]

FWIW Jim Hall and Ed Bickert both used a plain 3rd. No one complains about their tones. I've tried it and generally use a wound third, but with the plain third I though it was sort of like a classical guitar- the three treble strings having a consistent voice that is a bit different from the three wound bass strings. It can be a very nice sound.

[johnnyjazz]

As well as the string sizes, i also tune to 442, works for me.

[Meggy]

Hey Meggy, just my 02 cents...have you considered ordering a customized set of strings? There's only a few brands that I've found that you can put together each individual string gauge exactly to your liking. It still takes a little experimentation to find the gauges that works to your liking.

After I bought my Eastman 372 I started researching string brands and tried 4 or 5 different brands of flats, several TI's, D'Addario, Pyramid, LaBella. I simply didn't like flats on the Eastman.

Then I found Newtone Strings – British Handmade Strings est.1985 which is located in the UK. You can put together a customized set thru these guys with each string gauge to your liking. Personally, they worked fine for what I was after but I'm in the states and they're located in the UK. Takes about a month to receive them, no biggie if you know exactly which gauges will work.

Recently I start ordering customized sets through Custom Electric Guitar Strings | Stringjoy located in Nashville, Tn...super nice folks and I'm able to put together exactly the individual string gauges that work for me and also on the Eastman. Personally customized set's for me is the only way to go. I never like pre-determined gauge sets most every string manufacturer makes. It works much better for me to let the tone, guitar playability and fingers make the final individual string gauge decision rather than letting a pre-set string gauge (10's-11's-12's) make the decision.

It is an idea, cheers @BFrench although I am really liking the GHS Brite Flats 11s on the guitar now - I will check out the sites and suppliers you mention though. Perhaps if they did half-rounds in custom sets, that would be hard to resist. I did try Newtone archtop double-wound strings once, and liked a lot of things about them, although in the end I couldn't get the amplified string balance right for me. But yes, a good company that does some nice, and usefully different stuff, so I'm glad they're out there, and wish them well.

I'm no performer in the jazz realm. My string experimentation has been in practicing. Tried flats, half rounds, heavier guages (than .12 on the high E for example.) What sounds and feels best to me is a custom set of roundwounds, pieced together from Just Strings bulk sets:

High E: .12 plain
B: .15 plain
G: .20 plain
D: .30 wound
A: .40 wound
E: .50 wound

This set was suggested by my trusted luthier friend George, as he did a fret dress set up on my first high quality archtop, a Heritage H575 custom. Which has a wooden bridge apparently carved for the plain third. As I got other archtops (Heritage H525, Dearmond T400, Silvertone 1427, that set continued to be the right choice. In part because the bridges cooperated.

Now also playing Anton's lovely '62 Guild X50, I encounter a wooden bridge that requires the wound third. So I found a set that nearly works for my preferred guages, the John Pearse Acoustic/Electric nickle wound jazz light, .011 - .050, then substiture in a .12 on the high E, and a wound .21 for the G. Not sure yet if I can go with the wound G. It's harder to push around, to slur, pull off. Quieter in volume than I'd like. But has it's own sound. Someday maybe I'll try a different wooden bridge and the plain G.
MD

Interesting to hear about, cheers @mad dog. I may still try a plain G at some point myself, just to see. Thinking about it though, I would ideally need to get a differently cut ebony bridge for the JP20 to get close with the intonation. The current bridge just has a single slope going across, although the curve flattens a bit a each end - the plain B string tends to play a fraction sharp, also the wound G - some compromise needed to get a good result for intonation, but the guitar sounds nicely in tune when I play it, so it's fine.

GHS Brite Flats are excellent strings, IMHO.

Cheers @citizenk74 - I just did another gig (Sunday lunchtime jazz session) with the Brite Flats, and it still sounds great, best jazz tone I've had to be honest, the new pickup is gorgeous, and I'm sold on the strings really - need to get a couple more sets ordered I think.

FWIW Jim Hall and Ed Bickert both used a plain 3rd. No one complains about their tones. I've tried it and generally use a wound third, but with the plain third I though it was sort of like a classical guitar- the three treble strings having a consistent voice that is a bit different from the three wound bass strings. It can be a very nice sound.

I have to agree @Cunamara - I use plain 3rd 11's round wound with all my other guitars, and have done jazz gigs with some of them, with good results. And maybe I will try a plain 3rd with the archtop at some point, but the 0.022 wound 3rd on the GHS brite flats set does seem to be working well for me at present - it just seems light enough that I can get what i want from the guitar, and I suspect even going to a 0.024 would be a step too far.

As well as the string sizes, i also tune to 442, works for me.

You're obviously a man who likes to do things his way, and I can respect that @johnnyjazz. Interesting to hear about too, and must allow for some interesting possibilities.

[hotpepper01]

I use DAddario Chromes 30-40-50 from a standard set, and combine that with plain coated Elixirs (single strings) 12, 14 and 18. All my archtops have that string configuration. I do not like a wound 3rd. That has something to do with my solid body background. ANd I do like an unwound 3rd. A little benefit is that in this way, I can replace the high 3 strings before I replace the 3 bottom strings. Disadvantage is that I buy complete sets of chromes and only use half the set.

[johnnyjazz]

I use DAddario Chromes 30-40-50 from a standard set, and combine that with plain coated Elixirs (single strings) 12, 14 and 18. All my archtops have that string configuration. I do not like a wound 3rd. That has something to do with my solid body background. ANd I do like an unwound 3rd. A little benefit is that in this way, I can replace the high 3 strings before I replace the 3 bottom strings. Disadvantage is that I buy complete sets of chromes and only use half the set.

Man, i thought my set up was slightly odd, but your,s takes it to a whole new level, it works for you so good on ya, but i play mostly fingerstyle and that would throw my game out the window.
Cheers John.

[pcjazz]

Packet attached