making your solid state amp sound like tubes

**christianm77** · 10-21-2017, 10:01 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

I suppose it depends on the room, but I'd agree, at least in most places that are meant to have music, I find reverb is barely necessary.

Now, when I play in a dead corner of a loud restaurant...

Yeah that’s true. I find any situation where I actually have to listen to the speaker rather than the sound of the amp in the room pretty off putting.... but of course, you need to get used to that because otherwise you will prob end up being really loud.

Also if you think your sound is a bit brittle and unforgiving, chances are you are really concentrating on playing cleanly which will sound great in the room. Live sound isn’t for you it’s for the audience.

**paulkogut** · 10-21-2017, 10:06 AM

Fair warning, I'm an artist-endorser, but Brad Sarno's Classic Tube Preamp is worth consideration. It's a simple and really well-made 1U Fender Twin style pre. I don't know how well he's known on the jazz side of things, but a ton of players in the pedal steel, Americana and jam-band communities are on the bus. I also use his Black Box tube buffer to warm up amps-du-jour.SMS Classic Tube Preamp, Ultra pure vacuum tube reverb preamp l Sarno Music Solutions

PK

**0zoro** · 10-21-2017, 11:28 AM

Have any of you tried Line 6 Helix? The Axe FX was given a good review above, as were several other possibilities mentioned.

**jzucker** · 10-21-2017, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by 0zoro

Have any of you tried Line 6 Helix? The Axe FX was given a good review above, as were several other possibilities mentioned.

never tried one. Wanted to...

**vinnyv1k** · 10-21-2017, 01:13 PM

Interesting thread ! Thanks Jack

**jads57** · 10-21-2017, 01:40 PM

At the risk of this becomming an argument, Jack you come off as the authority on this subject. I think you have much expertise and have definite opinions which I sometimes find good but other times off putting. Just as there are many options their are individual likes and dislikes on all subjetcs,
I'm not sure if this thread is to discuss the subject or to promote your Blog about it? We're about the same age and have many similar experiences musically so I speak from that standpoint. And while you and I have been and hopefully continue to be pro players, I think it's wise to remain open to others views as well.

With that said , I think you are a very capable musician and expert on many areas of gear. I also have found you to be a very fair person to do business (Buy Gear From) with. My suggestion is try to use a little more tact in your responses, so as to not be misunderstood.

Thanks!

**omphalopsychos** · 10-21-2017, 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

On the cheap, a Tech 21 blonde will get you in the ballpark, maybe even buy you a scorecard and a hot dog.

I went even cheaper and got a Chinese clone (sorry, patriots): the Joyo American Sound.

It was worth it just to read the broken english on the packaging.

**krusty** · 10-21-2017, 03:48 PM

For me, it all comes down to adding a very small amount of OD to the front of the amp. Pedals I use for this purpose include a Suhr Eclipse (one side set very low gain, the other set higher to combine with either the crunch or lead of my Quilter OD200 for a liquid fusion lead), and a J Rockett Blue Note. The Blue Note in particular allows a lot of tone shaping at very low drive levels. The small amount of OD adds that tiny "something" that's missing in a clean SS amp compared to most clean tube amps. I set my drive and guitar volume such that even when digging in, it doesn't actually sound overdriven. If I wind up the guitar volume, it gives it some audible hair.

The tiny bit of compression added with an OD pedal can help as well.

**christianm77** · 10-21-2017, 05:29 PM

I use the Joyo, it's actually pretty handy. Not used it for a while for some reason.

I think the small levels of OD thing is true actually.

**0zoro** · 10-22-2017, 11:17 AM

A comparison between the Kemper and, for example the Line 6 Helix would of course be interesting if anyone has had the opportunity. Features such as sound of course, but intuitivity and ease would be interesting to hear any relevant comments on. This also includes the Avid 11 mentioned above.

**wzpgsr** · 10-22-2017, 12:22 PM

My number one complaint with a lot of the solid-state gear that I’ve played in the last several years is not what it’s missing from the tube amp sound, but rather something that it adds that is not present in the tube amp sound. Sort of a barely discernible upper mid range sizzle that I can never quite EQ out. I can really hear it when I’m playing major seven chords or other chords where there’s only a half step or whole step in between two notes on subsequent strings. Somehow the “beats“ of the harmonics are presented differently in the solid-state.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m talking about very critical listening in most contexts, the kind of listening that you’re certainly not going to be doing sitting in an audience or playing on stage. But in a practice room, it is noticeable. I’ve had the joyo, the tech 21 blonde, a variety of classic solid-state amps, all of which can capture the warmth of a tube amp, and sometimes even the feel, but they all have the sizzle that I’m talking about.

**jads57** · 10-22-2017, 12:56 PM

That's an interesting way of looking at it. That it actually adds some sort of sound artifact. Ideally for me it's that warmth or soft clip of the power tubes w/out it becomming harsh sounding I like best. Probably a lower to med wattage amp like a Fender Deluxe being pushed is a great tone.
The problem being as with all tube amps there's a very specific range of volume it sounds and feels best at. How do you get that sweet spot tone at volumes from quiet to loud in a small portable package. They've definitely come a long ways with the amount of computing power in small chip form. But it still doesn't quite feel right to my ears/fingers. That said I would like to try a Kemper Profiler and see if that's the answer!

**jzucker** · 10-22-2017, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

That's an interesting way of looking at it. That it actually adds some sort of sound artifact. Ideally for me it's that warmth or soft clip of the power tubes w/out it becomming harsh sounding I like best. Probably a lower to med wattage amp like a Fender Deluxe being pushed is a great tone.
The problem being as with all tube amps there's a very specific range of volume it sounds and feels best at. How do you get that sweet spot tone at volumes from quiet to loud in a small portable package. They've definitely come a long ways with the amount of computing power in small chip form. But it still doesn't quite feel right to my ears/fingers. That said I would like to try a Kemper Profiler and see if that's the answer!

The answer is modeling. You can get the sweet spot at any volume and you are not limited by physics. For example, if you like the sound of transformer sag and 15w speakers and EL84s you can get it and have it put out 600W worth of power.

It's very cool to hear what a 100W twin reverb sounds like through a 12" alnico 15w vox speaker impulse. You could never do that in real life.

**sgosnell** · 10-22-2017, 02:33 PM

You mean this isn't real life?

**jads57** · 10-22-2017, 02:58 PM

Kemper seems to be the answer according to many! Like I mentioned before, I've not had a chance to actually play through it yet. Just the cheaper Bias Grid profiler which in practice seemed to fall a bit short for my ears. I need to retry the Bias with a laptop and the Bias app.
Any ways it's great to see such progress in the digital amplifier field as of late. Just too bad we didn't have this option when many of us where younger and gigging a lot,LOL!

**jzucker** · 10-22-2017, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Kemper seems to be the answer according to many! Like I mentioned before, I've not had a chance to actually play through it yet. Just the cheaper Bias Grid profiler which in practice seemed to fall a bit short for my ears. I need to retry the Bias with a laptop and the Bias app.
Any ways it's great to see such progress in the digital amplifier field as of late. Just too bad we didn't have this option when many of us where younger and gigging a lot,LOL!

I sold my kemper after owning it and the axefx ii. There was only one amp I liked better between the two models and it was an dumble overdrive special that was sampled from one of Robin Ford's amps. Everything else I liked better on the axefx and the effects are much better. The effects on the kemper sound like toys, particularly reverb.

I think a real princeton or deluxe sounds better but it's not worth it to me anymore.

The CPU on the axefx is almost 3x more powerful than the kemper and it has 2 of them. So on the axefx, the amp modeling has a dedicated CPU whereas on the kemper, one cpu has to do both. This is why kemper have literally been working on realistic time delay effects for years. It's difficult to get a convincing reverb , delay, or modulation that doesn't steal cpu bandwidth away from the amp.

The amplifire pedal actually has much more cpu power than the kemper and it's about 1/4 the price.

**jads57** · 10-22-2017, 04:32 PM

I didn't realize Axefx had dedicated amp models as well in their units. I always thought that these were effects based units w/ amp models as a backup in case you didn't have access to your amp. Like a fly date and or direct only rig.

**wzpgsr** · 10-22-2017, 05:03 PM

How do the higher end modelers sound and feel in the room through a FRFR speaker compared to, say, a 1x or 2x combo? I’ve often heard that the sound is more akin to the sound of a tube amp mic’d up than in the room.

I’m really digging recording with my Katana through the line out directly into my DAW—it eliminates so many headaches that come with mic’ing amps in subpar rooms. In room my tube amps sound better, even though the Katana is an amp with a guitar speaker. But recorded I really like how the Katana sounds.

**christianm77** · 10-22-2017, 05:46 PM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I sold my kemper after owning it and the axefx ii. There was only one amp I liked better between the two models and it was an dumble overdrive special that was sampled from one of Robin Ford's amps. Everything else I liked better on the axefx and the effects are much better. The effects on the kemper sound like toys, particularly reverb.

I think a real princeton or deluxe sounds better but it's not worth it to me anymore.

The CPU on the axefx is almost 3x more powerful than the kemper and it has 2 of them. So on the axefx, the amp modeling has a dedicated CPU whereas on the kemper, one cpu has to do both. This is why kemper have literally been working on realistic time delay effects for years. It's difficult to get a convincing reverb , delay, or modulation that doesn't steal cpu bandwidth away from the amp.

The amplifire pedal actually has much more cpu power than the kemper and it's about 1/4 the price.

I will probably end up doing AxeFX like everyone else if I get into more commercial playing. ATM I'm good to schelp my Princeton :-)

**Little Jay** · 10-22-2017, 06:04 PM

According to Steward Ward, designer and owner of Award Session, the biggest difference between tube amps and solid state amps, it the output transformer. According to Steven the way the output transformer interacts with the speaker is what gives tube amps their feel and sound. For this reason he designed what he calls the 'dynamic feedback' circuit. Quote: "Dynamic Feedback allows the speaker's cone(s) to add mechanically created harmonic rich overtones that are not generated in the signal delivered to the speaker’s terminals by the amplifier. It also increases the level of bass output." Well, from experience with my Award Session Bluesbaby 22, he must be on to something, since that's the most tube-sounding solid state amp I ever played (but I never played Kemper or Axefx). Too bad it's only 22 watts (perfectly comparable to the Deluxe Reverb's 22 watts), but they they do a 45 watt version now (still on the low side if you want things to stay clean).

So maybe the dynamic feedback circuit is the key to making solid state sound like tubes? I don't know if Quilter, DV Mark and Henriksen apply something similar in their amps?

**icr** · 10-22-2017, 08:04 PM

One of the first-generation solid-state tube amp and cabinet simulators: Roland GP-100.

**jzucker** · 10-22-2017, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Little Jay

According to Steward Ward, designer and owner of Award Session, the biggest difference between tube amps and solid state amps, it the output transformer. According to Steven the way the output transformer interacts with the speaker is what gives tube amps their feel and sound. For this reason he designed what he calls the 'dynamic feedback' circuit. Quote: "Dynamic Feedback allows the speaker's cone(s) to add mechanically created harmonic rich overtones that are not generated in the signal delivered to the speaker’s terminals by the amplifier. It also increases the level of bass output." Well, from experience with my Award Session Bluesbaby 22, he must be on to something, since that's the most tube-sounding solid state amp I ever played (but I never played Kemper or Axefx). Too bad it's only 22 watts (perfectly comparable to the Deluxe Reverb's 22 watts), but they they do a 45 watt version now (still on the low side if you want things to stay clean).

So maybe the dynamic feedback circuit is the key to making solid state sound like tubes? I don't know if Quilter, DV Mark and Henriksen apply something similar in their amps?

None of those amps really have a tube vibe. When you listen to someone who really knows how to milk tubes you realize that no solid state amp can do this although the modelers come real close.

Check out my buddy Mitch Chmara. I believe he's using a princeton reverb. The axefx princeton comes close to this.

**jads57** · 10-22-2017, 09:21 PM

Listened to a bunch of videos on the Axefx ll . Very impressive for sure! Be great if you were on tour and either used monitors or in ear monitoring. With the $$$ layout as well as having to provide a power amp and full range cab, kind of make it a no go for most situations where a portable amp is the simpler solution.
The other thing I always hear in these videos even the really good players, they lay on the delay,reverb, etc. Curious how it sounds and compares to the actual amp it models. Does it still feel 3D or is it flatter and needs the signal proccessing?

**jzucker** · 10-22-2017, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by jads57

Listened to a bunch of videos on the Axefx ll . Very impressive for sure! Be great if you were on tour and either used monitors or in ear monitoring. With the $$$ layout as well as having to provide a power amp and full range cab, kind of make it a no go for most situations where a portable amp is the simpler solution.
The other thing I always hear in these videos even the really good players, they lay on the delay,reverb, etc. Curious how it sounds and compares to the actual amp it models. Does it still feel 3D or is it flatter and needs the signal proccessing?

To me, it's indistinguishable from a real tube amp in terms of vibe and feel. And the whole "in the room" thing is overblown IMO. It sounds and feels just like having the real amp in the room to me with the exception that - and assuming you're using FRFR speakers - there is much less "directional pick in the eardrums" effect.

I agree that most folks are highly exaggerating the effects on all the demos. Also, almost every "clean" demo I've heard has some overdrive. Many rock players have no clue what clean sound is...

Here's what mine sounds like direct. The direct tone is brighter than the sound in the room through the FRFR speakers although I haven't fully been able to diagnose why. Maybe it would sound darker if I played back through my FRFR speakers or used my studio monitors to tweak-EQ the amps...