Lenny Breau - Tuned 7-String Guitar

**porter.fitch** · 09-21-2017, 11:15 AM

So, I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting my stride with chord melody playing, but I'm frustrated by the inability to sustain low bass notes under high treble notes. I know that some players use a low-tuned 7 string for these applications, grabbing the low bass notes on the low 7th string in higher positions. But I'm more interested in expanding the register of the guitar upward.

Which leads me to my question:
Does anyone know if there is a production model 7 string with a short enough scale to support the tuning that Lenny Breau used (EADGBEA)? I know that Ibanez used to make a 7 string guitar (the AX-7521, or the AX-7221) with a 24.75" scale, but if there's anything shorter, I'm not aware of it.

Finally, if you're not aware of such a production model guitar, who would you commission to build a short scale solid body 7 string?

Thanks!

**guido5** · 09-21-2017, 01:13 PM

Warmouth makes 25" scale 7 string necks...

**Jim Soloway** · 09-21-2017, 01:16 PM

Lenny's best known 7-string was built by Kirk Sand. I'd start by contacting Kirk. I believe he did a short run of them a few years ago and he'd probably be willing to build you one.

**Jim Soloway** · 09-21-2017, 01:21 PM

Originally Posted by guido5

Warmouth makes 25" scale 7 string necks...

Too long for the high A. I believe the scale length on Lenny's was 22.75".

I'd also add that none of Lenny's best known work was done on the 7-string. That came fairly late in his life.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-21-2017, 01:26 PM

What about tuning down a whole step and going with a G on top...should be able to get an .08 up to G...

**porter.fitch** · 09-21-2017, 02:48 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Too long for the high A. I believe the scale length on Lenny's was 22.75".

I'd also add that none of Lenny's best known work was done on the 7-string. That came fairly late in his life.

Great, thanks for the specs! I know that most of Breau's stuff was on a 6, but I like the idea behind his 7. And frankly, he could do more on 6 strings than I could get to with 60. I need all the help I can get!

**porter.fitch** · 09-21-2017, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

What about tuning down a whole step and going with a G on top...should be able to get an .08 up to G...

That's a good thought... If it's possible, I'd like to keep all of my notes where they are, but maybe getting a production instrument and dealing with transposing is the way to go.

**mr. beaumont** · 09-21-2017, 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by porter.fitch

That's a good thought... If it's possible, I'd like to keep all of my notes where they are, but maybe getting a production instrument and dealing with transposing is the way to go.

And you could capo up too...The fretboard markers/side dots might play a little trick on your brain, but I'm ure with a little practice you could adjust.

**Jim Soloway** · 09-21-2017, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

What about tuning down a whole step and going with a G on top...should be able to get an .08 up to G...

The real question is whether he's after the intervals or the specific notes. If it's just the intervals, he could start as low as A or B and use the same intervals as the Breau tuning. That would give him better intonation and proper tension levels with the full upward extension of the Breau tuning without any of the hassle of the short scale length and the insanely thin high A string.

**Cunamara** · 09-21-2017, 04:50 PM

Lenny used a cheap Giannini 7 strength classical with fishing line for the high A string. Might be easier to do this with a classical than with a steel string. For steel strings you will need a very short scale instrument in order to get the string ups to the A without breaking.

**pcjazz** · 09-21-2017, 07:10 PM

Originally Posted by porter.fitch

So, I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting my stride with chord melody playing, but I'm frustrated by the inability to sustain low bass notes under high treble notes. I know that some players use a low-tuned 7 string for these applications, grabbing the low bass notes on the low 7th string in higher positions. But I'm more interested in expanding the register of the guitar upward.

Which leads me to my question:
Does anyone know if there is a production model 7 string with a short enough scale to support the tuning that Lenny Breau used (EADGBEA)? I know that Ibanez used to make a 7 string guitar (the AX-7521, or the AX-7221) with a 24.75" scale, but if there's anything shorter, I'm not aware of it.

Finally, if you're not aware of such a production model guitar, who would you commission to build a short scale solid body 7 string?

Thanks!

You need a short scale or fanned frets. I have had three short-scale high-A guitars built. Two have steel strings, and their necks are essentially regular scale necks cut off at the second fret. I use a .010 for the high string on the Alan Beardsell flattop (12 frets to the body) and a .0095 on the Ted Megas electric. My Kirk Sand nylon string uses one of the several small gauge single strings now available from D'Addario --- a big improvement over Lenny's fishing line. These are all great instruments and I play them constantly, but I think if I were to do it again I would consider fanned frets, mostly to avoid the need for heavier wound strings on the bottom, especially with steel strings.

You could get a cheap used low-A 7 string (I started years ago with a Schechter) and tune it to high-G in order to get a feel for the instrument, with or without a capo, but be aware that a short scale guitar feels and plays and sounds quite different than a longer scale one.

**ronjazz** · 09-21-2017, 09:07 PM

Ibanez made a 25" 7, the AX something, looks like a Gibson SG, a little. You can find one for around $200, I have one that I've gigged on, but I use the low A. As was suggested, you could try a lower tuning and just capo up for reading situations; transposing chord changes becomes easy after a while. In fact, having a guitar like that can make one a better player .

**porter.fitch** · 09-21-2017, 09:46 PM

Originally Posted by pcjazz

You need a short scale or fanned frets. I have had three short-scale high-A guitars built. Two have steel strings, and their necks are essentially regular scale necks cut off at the second fret. I use a .010 for the high string on the Alan Beardsell flattop (12 frets to the body) and a .0095 on the Ted Megas electric. My Kirk Sand nylon string uses one of the several small gauge single strings now available from D'Addario --- a big improvement over Lenny's fishing line. These are all great instruments and I play them constantly, but I think if I were to do it again I would consider fanned frets, mostly to avoid the need for heavier wound strings on the bottom, especially with steel strings.

You could get a cheap used low-A 7 string (I started years ago with a Schechter) and tune it to high-G in order to get a feel for the instrument, with or without a capo, but be aware that a short scale guitar feels and plays and sounds quite different than a longer scale one.

I knew there had to be someone who'd tried this on here!
So your high A guitars are around 22" scale length? Any issues with string breakage?
Also, how would you describe the difference in sound between a short scale and a more typical scale?
Finally, is the nylon string a full 650mm scale?

**pcjazz** · 09-21-2017, 10:12 PM

Originally Posted by porter.fitch

I knew there had to be someone who'd tried this on here!
So your high A guitars are around 22" scale length? Any issues with string breakage?
Also, how would you describe the difference in sound between a short scale and a more typical scale?
Finally, is the nylon string a full 650mm scale?

The steel string are closer to 23; the nylon is longer but not 650mm. I am away from home just now so unable to give a precise measurement. No breakage issues once I had figured out brands and gauges. I think you have to experience playing a short scale guitar to appreciate the difference in feel, and while every instrument will have its own sonic character the shorter scale (often along with a smaller body) can produce tighter more defined mids and trebles.

**Stanford J17** · 09-28-2017, 03:49 AM

I think I have read a customer review about a 7 string high a guitar on the old website of luthier Wes Lambe.
I can't find it on his new one, but if you check his 7-string mono-output guitars, it should be the First one.

7 Strings — Wes Lambe Guitars

**porter.fitch** · 09-28-2017, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by pcjazz

The steel string are closer to 23; the nylon is longer but not 650mm. I am away from home just now so unable to give a precise measurement. No breakage issues once I had figured out brands and gauges. I think you have to experience playing a short scale guitar to appreciate the difference in feel, and while every instrument will have its own sonic character the shorter scale (often along with a smaller body) can produce tighter more defined mids and trebles.

Thanks so much for your insight! This idea felt like a pipe dream until I talked to someone who actually plays these guitars. So what has your experience of the high A been? Did it open up what you wanted it to?

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**porter.fitch** · 09-28-2017, 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by pcjazz

The steel string are closer to 23; the nylon is longer but not 650mm. I am away from home just now so unable to give a precise measurement. No breakage issues once I had figured out brands and gauges. I think you have to experience playing a short scale guitar to appreciate the difference in feel, and while every instrument will have its own sonic character the shorter scale (often along with a smaller body) can produce tighter more defined mids and trebles.

Thanks so much for your insight! This idea felt like a pipe dream until I talked to someone who actually plays these guitars. So what has your experience of the high A been? Did it open up what you wanted it to?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**porter.fitch** · 09-28-2017, 01:56 PM

Originally Posted by Stanford J17

I think I have read a customer review about a 7 string high a guitar on the old website of luthier Wes Lambe.
I can't find it on his new one, but if you check his 7-string mono-output guitars, it should be the First one.

7 Strings — Wes Lambe Guitars

Just talked to Wes on the phone. I think that's my guy! Thanks for recommending him.

I'm looking at a solid body with a 22.75 to 24.75 fan. It should have the same lows that I'm used to, while having a strong enough high A.

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**Jabberwocky** · 09-29-2017, 04:43 AM

Plain Steel Strings

**r7string** · 11-15-2017, 08:30 PM

Just wanted to put out there that I had a 7 string made for me by Tom Holmes who made some guitars for Lenny when he lived in Nashville in the 70's. I originally used a low A, over the years, I eventually changed to high A. My scale length is 25.5" and I have no problems tuning up to a high A. Lenny's Kirk Sand guitar was definitely short scale. I think it was a Byrdland scale. I spoke to him at Donte's about it but we got interrupted. The problems I've had with the high A have been more around sustain and making sure you have a sound that allows the high A to "cut through". I'm currently using a Acoustic Image Clarus amp head with a Razer's Edge Twin 8 cabinet on one side and a Roland JC-120 on the other. I use a Lexicon Reverb unit MX200 as well as a Diamond Compressor and Diamond Para EQ. It allows me to really fine tune the sound.

**David Joel** · 07-31-2018, 11:37 AM

Thanks for all the knowledgeable comments on Lenny and his 7 string playing. Has anyone any knowledge about what kind of guitar he used on his Velvet Touch recording of Mercy, Mercy, Mercy? It's in B. Some of the strings are in octaves, like a 12 string but some of the playing sounds to be only on one string, not unison as 12 strings go. Also, sounds like he had a low B string. Can anyone elaborate if you have knowledge?

Thanks much!

**s11141827** · 09-12-2023, 11:58 AM

How about you take a set of Magma GCT-A High A Tuning Strings & add on a Standard Classical Guitar Low E String?

**nevershouldhavesoldit** · 09-12-2023, 12:10 PM

Fender made a 7 string Strat with a high A several years ago, and every once in a while, one pops up for sale. A web search would be worthwhile if you have any interest in a solid body. I've played two and thought they were very nice, although I did not buy either one because I'm a low A guy myself.

**Jim Soloway** · 09-13-2023, 05:25 PM

Originally Posted by David Joel

Thanks for all the knowledgeable comments on Lenny and his 7 string playing. Has anyone any knowledge about what kind of guitar he used on his Velvet Touch recording of Mercy, Mercy, Mercy? It's in B. Some of the strings are in octaves, like a 12 string but some of the playing sounds to be only on one string, not unison as 12 strings go. Also, sounds like he had a low B string. Can anyone elaborate if you have knowledge?

Thanks much!

I believe it's a Baldwin 12 string (probably made by Burns) with single stings for the low E and A and possibly even the D.

**Navdeep_Singh** · 09-15-2023, 01:10 PM

Here’s the specs for my 8 string acoustic archtop guitar, from Erich Solomon, the builder. This is the type of guitar that gives you BOTH the George v Eps 7 string AND the Lenny Breau 7 string. I use a size 10 on the High A string.

Solomon Specs

“The top is heat treated (torrified) European spruce from Switzerland (Welcome to Tonewood Switzerland - We live where the spruce trees grow...), the back and sides are curly Claro walnut from Oregon, the neck is quartersawn hard maple from the Northeast, ebony board from Africa. Adirondack spruce x-brace.

It is an 8 string 16” non-cutaway acoustic archtop guitar with fanned frets. 28” baritone scale on bass, 24.75” Gibson scale on treble side, w 8th fret perpendicular. Compound conical fretboard radius of 10” at nut and 16” at bottom of fretboard and flattening out to about a 21” radius at the bridge.”

So: Baritone scale on the bass side: Gibson scale on the treble side