New Eastman Pagelli Electronics Buzz

[Duffy Pratt]

I just got an Eastman Pagelli PG2 off Reverb, advertised in excellent condition. It's an arch top with a floating pickup. The guitar lives up to its billing, except there is a noticeable buzz when it is plugged in (one that is very sensitive to increased gain). The buzz disappears when I touch any metal by the 1/4" jack, but comes back immediately. It also seems to increase when I play the bass strings high up the neck. My guess is that this is some kind of grounding issue, but I'm over my head on this sort of thing, and could be wrong.

I have tried different cords, and its not in the cord. I've tried a different guitar, and it makes no such noise. A couple of questions: 1) Does this sound like a grounding issue, and if so, how difficult should it be to fix (by a competent repair guy, not by me)? and 2) What sort of issue, if any, should I make about it with the seller?


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[JazzNote]

The buzz disappears when I touch any metal by the 1/4" jack, but comes back immediately.

comes back immediately even if you keep touching or immediately after release?

[Duffy Pratt]

Immediately after release. Is gone the entire time I am touching.


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[JazzNote]

If the same happens while you touch the strings with the other hand, the strings are not connected to ground.

On all the guitars i own the strings are connected to ground via tailpiece or bridge. You may try to find out if a existing wire to the tailpiece got loose, or if there is no provision for grounding in the tailpiece.

In the second case this might help to get an idea:
http://www.guitarrasjaen.com/GroundingTailpiece_EN.pdf

[furtom]

If the same happens while you touch the strings with the other hand, the strings are not connected to ground.

On all the guitars i own the strings are connected to ground via tailpiece or bridge. You may try to find out if a existing wire to the tailpiece got loose, or if there is no provision for grounding in the tailpiece.

In the second case this might help to get an idea:
http://www.guitarrasjaen.com/GroundingTailpiece_EN.pdf

Yes, it's exactly this. Your output jack is correctly connected to ground, which is why touching it silences the sound. For some reason, the ground is not connected to the bridge, meaning your entire guitar is not grounded at all (since the guitar is the only electronic item in the world where the user functions as the ground -- which is why an ungrounded amp can kill you).

The bass string is a red herring. different frequencies may accent the problem, but it's the ground that is the issue.

It will probably take a tech 10 minutes to fix it. Just a wee bit o' solder is the most likely scenario.

[Duffy Pratt]

Thanks for the help. I will take it to a tech this week, and hope that you are right. That way I can put off the decision on whether to change out the pickup and/or pots.


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[JazzNote]

For some reason, the ground is not connected to the bridge, meaning your entire guitar is not grounded at all

On Eastman Pagelli guitars the bridge is made from wood, the strings are resting on a piece of plastic i believe (or bone?). Therefore the connection to the ground has to be going through the tailpiece. This could be quite a bit more labour to install, than grounding a metal bridge.

[JazzNote]

since the guitar is the only electronic item in the world where the user functions as the ground -- which is why an ungrounded amp can kill you.

In order to reduce danger some players insert a resistor in between. That would reduce the voltage hitting the player in case this happened.

[furtom]

In order to reduce danger some players insert a resistor in between. That would reduce the voltage hitting the player in case this happened.

Wow, never heard anything like that. How would that work, exactly? That means that all the points in the circuit that are supposed to be ground will have a voltage, instead. I can't imagine that being a good thing.

I have had some EE training, but it was a very long time ago. So I'm not an expert, but this seems of dubious value. The amps would flow right through the resistor and kill you anyway. I mean, it might attenuate it a little bit, but I don't see this as protection. hmmm

Hopefully someone with more knowledge can shed some light?

[Duffy Pratt]

On Eastman Pagelli guitars the bridge is made from wood, the strings are resting on a piece of plastic i believe (or bone?). Therefore the connection to the ground has to be going through the tailpiece. This could be quite a bit more labour to install, than grounding a metal bridge.

That's very interesting. If you are right (and I have no reason to think otherwise), wouldn't every Eastman guitar with a floating pickup have the same problem? But I didn't hear anything about this in the threads talking about Eastmans. Nor have I heard the problem in the videos I have watched demoing them. Curious.


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[JazzNote]

wouldn't every Eastman guitar with a floating pickup have the same problem?

Every guitar with a magnetic pickup would have the same problem if the strings are not grounded. But i guess the extent of the hum/buzz depends on the environment the guitar is played in.

Maybe even on how the ground in the electrical house installation is setup. I remember having huge hum problems in old houses where at some point in the electrical system the ground was directly connected with the neutral wire.

[JazzNote]

Wow, never heard anything like that. How would that work, exactly? That means that all the points in the circuit that are supposed to be ground will have a voltage, instead. I can't imagine that being a good thing.

I have had some EE training, but it was a very long time ago. So I'm not an expert, but this seems of dubious value. The amps would flow right through the resistor and kill you anyway. I mean, it might attenuate it a little bit, but I don't see this as protection. hmmm

Hopefully someone with more knowledge can shed some light?

I believe it works like the following: the human body connected between the "hot" wire and ground acts like a resistor. So we would have two resistors in series. I have read recommendations for a value of 47kohms for the resistor. The human body has a resistance of theoretically 1 Kohms to 2,4 Kohms, so most of the voltage drop would happen over the resistor and the current flow would be limited tremendously.

[sgosnell]

Almost certainly the tailpiece was grounded when the guitar was shipped. I'd guess the ground wire has broken been disconnected. Reconnecting that ground wire should solve the problem. It might take some effort to find the break, or not, impossible to say without actually checking, but the cost should be minimal.

[Duffy Pratt]

Two more facts that are probably relevant. 1) If I touch the pickup itself, the buzzing gets worse by about double. 2) Rolling off the tone control on the guitar makes the buzz go away. Not sure what explains number one. With number 2, if the tone control is a low pass filter, I suppose rolling it off might just cut the frequencies in the buzz. Or maybe there is something wrong in the pot.


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[furtom]

The buzz getting worse is classic symptom of the pup not being grounded. That's good info. Means the continuity is probably broken in the control cavity.

I think the capacitor is properly grounded, which is why the buzz diminishes as you engage it.

Should be an easy fix. He just has to find the issue with a meter.

[furtom]

I believe it works like the following: the human body connected between the "hot" wire and ground acts like a resistor. So we would have two resistors in series. I have read recommendations for a value of 47kohms for the resistor. The human body has a resistance of theoretically 1 Kohms to 2,4 Kohms, so most of the voltage drop would happen over the resistor and the current flow would be limited tremendously.

I have some friendly doubts about your explanation.

First of all, the very, very small current from the circuit does not pass through the body to ground. The body itself is ground, not any kind of resistor as far as this circuit is concerned.

Like the dialectic in a capacitor, the body has the ability to charge to a certain potential. That's why you get a shock in the winter when you turn on a light switch, which is grounded. The potential you can absorb is many orders of magnitude greater than the voltage in the guitar signal. So as far as what the circuit sees, the player is ground.

If you are playing in your house on a wood stool and with rubber shoes, you are not grounded at all. The current isn't flowing through you, it's just building up potential. This can go on seemingly forever since it's such a tiny amount.

This is the way the circuit is designed. It's harmless. The problem can come in when the amp has a catastrophic malfunction. Current always flows from high potential to low. If the amp isn't grounded, you may find yourself the lowest potential in the circuit and therefore toast.
I
The amount of current we are talking about in such a situation will burn the resistors already in the circuit to a crisp. Adding another, unless it's the width of a sausage, isn't gonna make any difference.

Also putting a potential at the point in the circuit that should be ground can't be a good thing, tone-wise, though I'm not enough of an EE to tell you why. Call it a hunch.

And finally, I find the simple logic is often the best test. If putting a resistor in the circuit would make it safer, why wouldn't every guitar maker do it? In bulk, they cost pennies.

Just my thoughts.

[JazzNote]

I have some friendly doubts about your explanation.

First of all, the very, very small current from the circuit does not pass through the body to ground. The body itself is ground, not any kind of resistor as far as this circuit is concerned.

Like the dialectic in a capacitor, the body has the ability to charge to a certain potential. That's why you get a shock in the winter when you turn on a light switch, which is grounded. The potential you can absorb is many orders of magnitude greater than the voltage in the guitar signal. So as far as what the circuit sees, the player is ground.

If you are playing in your house on a wood stool and with rubber shoes, you are not grounded at all. The current isn't flowing through you, it's just building up potential. This can go on seemingly forever since it's such a tiny amount.

This is the way the circuit is designed. It's harmless. The problem can come in when the amp has a catastrophic malfunction. Current always flows from high potential to low. If the amp isn't grounded, you may find yourself the lowest potential in the circuit and therefore toast.

The amount of voltage we are talking about in such a situation will burn the resistors already in the circuit to a crisp. Adding another, unless it's the width of a sausage, isn't gonna make any difference.

Also putting a potential at the point in the circuit that should be ground can't be a good thing, though I'm not enough of an EE to tell you why. Call it a hunch.

And finally, I find the simple logic is often the best test. If putting a resistor in the circuit would make it safer, why wouldn't every guitar maker do it? In bulk, they cost pennies.

Just my thoughts.

Well it's up to you not to believe. Maybe you could study some more about the basics of electricity. I'd advise you especially to review your belief that the body IS ground.

You wrote in one of your posts: "since the guitar is the only electronic item in the world where the user functions as the ground -- which is why an ungrounded amp can kill you".

An ungrounded amp would harm the player only if by a fault of the amps electronics voltage gets on the parts which are supposed to be grounded (therefore resulting in voltage on the strings).

[Woody Sound]

That's very interesting. If you are right (and I have no reason to think otherwise), wouldn't every Eastman guitar with a floating pickup have the same problem? But I didn't hear anything about this in the threads talking about Eastmans. Nor have I heard the problem in the videos I have watched demoing them. Curious.

The other Eastmans have a wooden overlay on a metal tailpiece. It *looks* like the Pagelli has a solid wood tail, thus no way to ground the strings(?) Is that correct?

[furtom]

Well it's up to you not to believe. Maybe you could study some more about the basics of electricity.

My friend, I'm sorry if you are taking this personally. I'm just discussing something I find interesting with like-minded people. I'm not trying to argue or make anyone unhappy.

I'd advise you especially to review your belief that the body IS ground.

I'm sorry, but regarding an electric guitar circuit, if you think the body is acting as a resistor as the current passes through the body to ground, you are the one who is mistaken. There are many points in this discussion I would accept correction, however, I'm sure about this one.

You wrote in one of your posts: "since the guitar is the only electronic item in the world where the user functions as the ground -- which is why an ungrounded amp can kill you".

An ungrounded amp would harm the player only if by a fault of the amps electronics voltage gets on the parts which are supposed to be grounded (therefore resulting in voltage on the strings).

I don't understand what your point is here. This is pretty much exactly what I said. What were you trying to say? Did you think I said the body is ground for the amp? Not at all.

I can discuss this all day because I find it interesting and I like talking about this stuff. I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong. I've already said I am not sure about the resistor's value in the circuit, but I can change my mind if I'm convinced.

If you don't want to do that, that's ok too. Our posts stand on their own and those coming after can figure out for themselves.

What I don't want to do is get into an argument. If my posts upset you, I'll be happy to bow out. It's just not worth creating a negative environment, you know?

[sgosnell]

If the tailpiece is solid wood, no metal, it should be easy enough to put copper tape on the bottom to provide a ground. It's a little more effort to get the proper ground that way, but it's certainly doable. Even aluminum tape would do the job. You can get it at home improvement stores as duct tape. Not the cloth gaffer's tape, but the actual metal duct tape. Relatively inexpensive, and it works.

[JazzNote]

My friend, I'm sorry if you are taking this personally. I'm just discussing something I find interesting with like-minded people. I'm not trying to argue or make anyone unhappy.

I'm sorry, but regarding an electric guitar circuit, if you think the body is acting as a resistor as the current passes through the body to ground, you are the one who is mistaken. There are many points in this discussion I would accept correction, however, I'm sure about this one.

[COLOR=#3E3E3E]

I don't understand what your point is here. This is pretty much exactly what I said. What were you trying to say? Did you think I said the body is ground for the amp? Not at all.

I can discuss this all day because I find it interesting and I like talking about this stuff. I'm happy to be corrected when I'm wrong. I've already said I am not sure about the resistor's value in the circuit, but I can change my mind if I'm convinced.

If you don't want to do that, that's ok too. Our posts stand on their own and those coming after can figure out for themselves.

What I don't want to do is get into an argument. If my posts upset you, I'll be happy to bow out. It's just not worth creating a negative environment, you know?

It seems that somehow we are talking different languages here and i can't spare time to figure out a way to translate.

edit: and it would be inappropriate to hijack this thread to discuss a topic in length which is not really related to it .....

[furtom]

It seems that somehow we are talking different languages here and i can't spare time to figure out a way to translate.

edit: and it would be inappropriate to hijack this thread to discuss a topic in length which is not really related to it .....

Fair enough, we might be misunderstanding each other.

The OP said he's bringing his guitar in. I'm sure it will be sorted out in short order.

Interesting topic. Worth it's own thread if ever you have a mind.

[Woody Sound]

If the tailpiece is solid wood, no metal, it should be easy enough to put copper tape on the bottom to provide a ground. It's a little more effort to get the proper ground that way, but it's certainly doable. Even aluminum tape would do the job. You can get it at home improvement stores as duct tape. Not the cloth gaffer's tape, but the actual metal duct tape. Relatively inexpensive, and it works.

But the tape would have to make contact with the strings, correct?

[sgosnell]

Assuming the tailpiece is grounded, running a wire there would take care of the problem. If the tailpiece is grounded, then the pickup should be grounded to it, and thus the wire would only need to go to the pickup ground.

[2bornot2bop]

Is that Pagelli tailpiece solid wood, or like many other Eastman's a shadow wood over metal? The base of the Pagelli tailpiece that attaches to the rim is solid metal.