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The other night I played for about 80 people in a large, open art space using a 1941 L7, DeArmond RC 1100 replica, and Phil Jones Super Cub amp.
At home, the guitar and this setup sounds absolutely fantastic, wonderful when it's set for just enough volume so you can hear both the acoustic qualities and the electric sound of a pick up --- basically not very loud but loud enough to really hear the sweetness of both sounds.
I've come to the sad realization that you might as well use any plank or slab guitar for playing a large room like that. It wasn't that my L7 was not loud enough, it was loud enough. But when the volume is cranked up, the guitar sounds like shit in terms of fundamentallly losing its aforementioned sweet tone that mixes the acoustic sound with a little bit of the electric sound .
Basically an electric Guitar sounds like any other electric guitar in a large enough space.
i'm sure I'm doing something wrong.
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07-30-2017 08:17 AM
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Sorry to hear that. But whatever you do, NSJ, I hope you don't compromise on sound by lowering your expectations - and that you find a way to raise reality towards your ideal.
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Guitar is such a frustrating instrument at times, more than many others, imo, all things considered.
But ... why don't you try to blend your magnetic pickup with some transducer of some sort ?
You probably won't get exactly the sweetness you get at home but some small amount of transducer can really contribute to a very sweet sound, and with a transducer not all guitars sound the same.
Some inexpensive JJB Electronics double disc (much better than K&K imo) a stereo jack, a double input preamp (the one from, K&K is pretty good, or a zoom A3, whichever in the $150 zone), not too hard to do or to get done.
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This is specifically why I've been using a K&K definity on a couple of archtops and a two channel amp. The K&k doesn't perfectly represent the acoustic tone but it does allow me to maintain the natural attack and presence of the acoustic in the mix.
Last edited by omphalopsychos; 07-30-2017 at 11:16 AM.
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Bigger venues I cave and use a CES archtop instead of my carved archtops with floater. With a carved body CES like a L5 or an Eagle Classic you still get a woody sound. Not the same, but still woody.
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I think part of the problem is the need to adjust the pole pieces. I have it set up where the top two strings are appreciably louder (to convey the melody).
At lower volumes, there is no problem with the balance. At higher volumes, I found out that the top two strings practically drown out the bottom 4 strings.
I'll probably go back to playing my Sadowsky Jim Hall the next time I get to play a larger room. That was always the go-to guitar.
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One of my former teachers had a big archtop, and for gigs he would run the pickup and then have a mic placed close to the guitar, and blend the sounds. I saw him perform outdoors like that, too, and it (he!) sounded great. Of course, Tim Miller does this with his fancy Canton guitar with a mic built into the guitar, but it's the same idea. "Acoustic-electric" sound.
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Navdeep,
Here are a couple of direct recordings (just using the direct out from the amp) on two guitars on which I've installed a K&K Definity in addition to the magnetic pickup. Since there was no microphone involved, the acoustic sound you hear is coming from the Definity only. There's a lot of valid criticism of piezo pickups, but I think they are an effective solution for what you are trying to achieve. I've that an effective way to improve the 'sweetness' contributed by the piezo is to EQ that channel to reduce bass and mids and increase treble and presence, but still keep it low in the mix relative to the magnetic sound.
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Last year I played a show in a large open and very acoustically reflective art gallery space. The crowd of 150 was chatting and of course when we played the volume in the room got louder. The drummer complained he couldn't hear me, but we were at appropriate volume level for the event -- turning up wasn't an option. Though we couldn't tell what we sounded like in the din of the crowd, we were told afterward that it was just perfect! I think it just wasn't as much fun for us musicians as a better sounding room would be.
I saw a lady vocalist try to do a solo ambient vocal show in the same gallery space using loopers and delays. The crowd noise and the room trainwrecked her vibe, she tried to turn up so she could hear the nuances of her sounds, but it got too loud for the occasion and she was told to turn down. She ended up cutting her performance short and didn't have a very happy night. Tough night in a tough space!
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In ear monitoring needed in a room like that
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Are you sure the crowd caused the trainwreck?
Originally Posted by Longways to Go
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That's a great point! Originally Posted by Greentone
My little combo doesn't perform very frequently, so we aren't quite that sophisticated . . .
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phil jones makes a small passive speaker called an ear box. It connects to a speaker out and can be attached to a mic stand so you can position it directly at you ear for monitoring your sound. They market it to upright bass players but I can't imagine it wouldn't work for guitar as well. I haven't tried it myself but have read good reviews from other DB players.
Ear-Box – Phil Jones Bass
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Drummers driving up the volume isn't unheard of. Maybe he played too loud since he couldn't hear you. Originally Posted by Longways to Go
Count Basie instructing a new trumper player: "Whatever happens, always follow Freddie Greens beat."
Trumpet player: "What if I can't hear him?"
Basie: "Then you play too loud."
Here's Jo Jones showing how elegant drumming can be - also at low volume:
As for the noisy audience, I read one of the big cats saying that when they ran into that kind of problem, they played quieter, not louder. That way the audience would eventually shut up to hear the music. If they played louder, the audience would raise their voices and it would end up in an increasing volume spiral.Last edited by oldane; 07-30-2017 at 01:15 PM.
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Oldane,
Smart. Pull the audience into the performance.
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Anytime you start electrifying an acoustic instrument it changes the tone. It can be quite dramatic or sometimes pleasant depending on the pickup, amp, speakers,etc. I think most people have settled on a couple of go to options in terms of pickups (Kent Armstrong handmade 12 polepeice floater, Johnny Smith Mini Humbucker type, De Armond, etc.)
Then comes the amp and speaker issue, which is really designed for electric guitar. So a flat response or P.A. type is probably preferable if available. Your Phil Jones should be fairly nuetral in this case. For me I just am satisfied with the Quilter Aviator 1x8" combo.
Unless you have a great monitor system which essentially replicates studio quality sounds, you need to adapt to hearing lesser quality tones. I found even when the gear isn't great it's the situation that determines my happiness quotient for the gig!
Best of luck!
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I played my Super Eagle today. It sounds mighty woody and jazzy, even at high volume.
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This really gets to a core issue: context. We all spend countless hours honing that perfect tone (in the practice room) only to confront an entirely different (and frequently sonically hostile) situation at the gig. "Lesser quality tones" are all but inevitable, and a certain personal frustration is par for the course. One has to maintain a certain faith that the sound the audience hears is still musically satisfying. Originally Posted by jads57
Anytime you start electrifying an acoustic instrument it changes the tone. It can be quite dramatic or sometimes pleasant depending on the pickup, amp, speakers,etc. I think most people have settled on a couple of go to options in terms of pickups (Kent Armstrong handmade 12 polepeice floater, Johnny Smith Mini Humbucker type, De Armond, etc.)
Then comes the amp and speaker issue, which is really designed for electric guitar. So a flat response or P.A. type is probably preferable if available. Your Phil Jones should be fairly nuetral in this case. For me I just am satisfied with the Quilter Aviator 1x8" combo.
Unless you have a great monitor system which essentially replicates studio quality sounds, you need to adapt to hearing lesser quality tones. I found even when the gear isn't great it's the situation that determines my happiness quotient for the gig!
Best of luck!
Be prepared for the worst, hope for the best, pray for mercy, live to play another day.
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You're not alone. It's challenging to get a good, loud, sound out of an archtop.
Some well known pros avoid archtops for that reason. Others manage to sound great, e.g. Wes.
The usual problem I hear at the intermediate level is that the guitars may put out a lot of lower frequencies which can make a group sound muddy. More experienced players seem to avoid this problem; touch? EQ? voicings? I'm not sure, but they make it work.
I noticed that Chico Pinheiro plays a Benedetto which has a mic on a gooseneck which, apparently, comes with the guitar. I believe this model also has a magnetic pickup, but it sounds like they're trying to solve your problem, by mixing the pickup with the acoustic quaiity captured by the nic.
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A lot of people think a "jazz" tone comes from rolling the treble all the way off, achieving a farts-in-the-bathtub sound. But if you listen closely to Wes, Tal, Jim Hall, etc., they have a lot more brightness than you initially think. The more characteristically bright tones like Grant Green, Johnny Smith, etc., probably don't have much more brightness but they have less bass. Tuck Andress has a lot more brightness, OTOH. The huge spectrum of the drums- from the lowest to the highest frequencies on the bandstand- tends to mask the brightness of the guitar tone. A warm, woody living room sound gets turned into mud on the bandstand, even before the specific and often terrible acoustics of the room (or playing outside, yet another situation that can be terrible) are taken into account. It takes experience, repetition, etc., to learn to compensate. I don't have it figured out yet with consistency.
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This sounds like an easy-fix! You have to use - apart from the pickup - another microphone which will make the acoustic qualities shine. Here's a video of Anythony Wilson playing a Eastman Pisano (which isn't acoustic sounding amplified, at all), with a microphone added it sounds terriffic!
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That advice has served me well. I heard it as, "If you're loud, they'll hear you; if you're quiet, they might listen." Originally Posted by oldane
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'Personal Near-Field Monitor' - what an excellent idea! I wonder whether I could use one close to the vocal mic (without causing feedback)? Originally Posted by madbanjoman
Last edited by destinytot; 07-31-2017 at 05:55 AM.
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I achieve good results with my L5CES and an Acoustic Image Clarus run through two RE Stealth 10 cabinets, one cabinet on a small stand, lifted about 10cm above ground and tilted towards me, the other on the floor. This rig projects well also in "louder" circumstances and the sound of the L5 stays beautiful at any volume. (I have not dared to play some of these volumes with a guitar with a floater so far).
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Just a thought, and an expensive one, but how about an acoustic amp? Originally Posted by NSJ
It's still early days for me, but I'm convinced that it's a satisfactory solution - but if member jazzbow hadn't commented a while back that my Sonntag would sound great through an acoustic amp, I doubt whether it would have occurred to me to try it out last week (outdoors, on a seafront hotel terrace).
This is plugged in - but I'm going to try a gooseneck condenser mic (EDIT just out of curiosity).
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