Archtop Sound Quality, large room

[marcwhy]

This sounds like an easy-fix! You have to use - apart from the pickup - another microphone which will make the acoustic qualities shine. Here's a video of Anythony Wilson playing a Eastman Pisano (which isn't acoustic sounding amplified, at all), with a microphone added it sounds terriffic!

Yep, that's what I described above.

[ronjazz]

Bose Compact with processor and mic, unbeatable in the worst conditions. For tube folks, a small tube mic preamp by ART or Lexicon does the trick, and a small processor like a Digitech R55 gives reverb and EQ in any amounts you need. Mic plugs straight into the mic input, no effects (not necessary anyway), and clip-on mic by Audio Technica or DPA OR a soundboard transducer like K & K or Schertler will bring out the acoustic tone. The Bose projects much better because a) it's a line array system and b) the speakers are just above ear level, while the bass speaker is at the floor. And you have to work very hard to make it feed back. I've used this rig in hundreds of situations indoors and out, solo and with loud bands (also has a 1/4" output to go to house sound), with conventional archtops, semi-hollows, and amplified classical (6 and 7-string), sometimes with a Roland guitar synth as well, and am always able to quickly dial in a very good sound, which the entire band can hear easily, since I can set this up at the back of the stage area, thus hearing what the audience hears. I haven't used a conventional amp for over 10 years except when I have no electricity available, then I use Crate battery-powered amps, which are pretty good on sailboats or in garden parties, and my Bose experience taught me to put those Crate amps up on speaker stands to carry the sound throughout the area without needing a lot of volume. You'll always have a tough time getting your sound through the room if the crowds legs are absorbing it!

[destinytot]

Bose Compact with processor and mic, unbeatable in the worst conditions.

I second that. (I use one quite frequently.)

PS My only reason for not getting the Bose is that I use public transport for almost all my gigs; I barely even notice that I'm carrying an AER Compact 60 III in a shoulder bag - and I often raise that amp to head height on a stand.

[rabbit]

destinytot,

You always entertain me, thank you.

[Max405]

The other night I played for about 80 people in a large, open art space using a 1941 L7, DeArmond RC 1100 replica, and Phil Jones Super Cub amp.

At home, the guitar and this setup sounds absolutely fantastic, wonderful when it's set for just enough volume so you can hear both the acoustic qualities and the electric sound of a pick up --- basically not very loud but loud enough to really hear the sweetness of both sounds.

I've come to the sad realization that you might as well use any plank or slab guitar for playing a large room like that. It wasn't that my L7 was not loud enough, it was loud enough. But when the volume is cranked up, the guitar sounds like shit in terms of fundamentallly losing its aforementioned sweet tone that mixes the acoustic sound with a little bit of the electric sound .

Basically an electric Guitar sounds like any other electric guitar in a large enough space. i'm sure I'm doing something wrong.

Navdeep, when you are in a smaller room, you hear the acoustic guitar along with the magnetic pickup. In a bigger room, you will struggle to hear the sweet tone of the L7 because you are only amplifying the magnetic pickup. A pickup I wanted very badly when I had my L7c was the Barbera transducer pickup. You can get a wonderful acoustic tone from that pickup and Mix it in with the magnetic pickup you have. You will yield a fantastic sound. You can even preamp the Barbera Transducer for a wider range of sounds. But you will never get an acoustic and an electric sound from one pickup alone.
Dont give up on the L7.
And by the way, you probably sounded a lot better than you think you did.
Joe D.

[jorgemg1984]

Ideally, at larger stages, you would have a PA. That would allow you to use the amp at a low volume and retain a sweeter, more acoustic sound.

[Pat Clare]

If you can put a Zoom recorder in the back of the room it will give you a different perspective on how it sounds to the audience
Sometimes it sounds much different than how you hear it while performing.

[LeGrand]

Just a thought, and an expensive one, but how about an acoustic amp?

Exactly. I use a Traynor Acoustic Master Custom (225 solid state watts). 8" speaker with a tweeter. Wonderful for acoustic/electric. Direct out to the board etc. Great for instrumental playing. Traynor has different models for studio work as well - I believe the Custom has been discontinued, but still available through the net. For vocals and guitar, I use the Bose Compact (as mentioned in a couple posts) fed by an Allen & Heath mixer. A small pedal board supplies reverb (Boss RV-3) and harmony vocals (TC Helicon) for solo gigs. Plus a pair of Bose Compacts fed off a board can provide stereo. Recently I added a Fender Jazz Master UL to the amp stable and can't imagine a "jazz" venue where that would not be enough crisp clear volume. But the Bose Compact is my go to for my 2-5 gigs a week - both indoors and outdoors.

[destinytot]

destinytot,

You always entertain me, thank you.

Thanks, man.

I now despise these types - in real life, and in movies - but I'm posting this for humour. (Contains foul language)

[sgcim]

I gave up trying to play large halls and outside shows and concerts with an archtop without being mic'd through the PA a long time ago.

My solution is playing a Borys Jazz Solid with Kent Armstrong's version of a DeArmond 1100 pickup through an AI Corus.
I played a show yesterday afternoon in a large room with the Borys, and decided to turn the amp up to 3 for the climactic, energetic last tune of the show.
Halfway into it, the sound man came running up to me and said, "I need you at half the volume you're playing at now."

I immediately turned down, but it confirmed the fact that I could still get a good sound at a loud volume.
Tomorrow night, I'm featured with a big band playing CC's 'Solo Flight' for the second time this summer.
Even the most critical musician I know, told me I got a great, clean and warm sound out of my rig the first time.

[lawson-stone]

This really gets to a core issue: context. We all spend countless hours honing that perfect tone (in the practice room) only to confront an entirely different (and frequently sonically hostile) situation at the gig. "Lesser quality tones" are all but inevitable, and a certain personal frustration is par for the course. One has to maintain a certain faith that the sound the audience hears is still musically satisfying.
Be prepared for the worst, hope for the best, pray for mercy, live to play another day.

I also think a "core" issue is to feel comfortable making music with a range of tonal qualities. I feel tone is very important, but somehow I want my notes, ideas, phrasing and such to stand over a lot of different tones. So if I can get the sweet acoustic vibe, super. But if I need to plug in the plywood+polytone, I want my playing to still have whatever integrity I can give it. I feel a musician needs to deliver the music whatever the venue, unless of course they just chose the wrong venue. We are communicators, and we bear a responsibility to put the musical ideas where they can be received.

[rpjazzguitar]

On Tuesday, I played my regular twice a month gig. Same room, same setup, same band, same gear, similar crowd.

From the first note, I hated my sound. By the second set, I had adjusted to it and thought it sounded ok. The only thing I changed was a slight rotation of the tone knob on the guitar. My guess is that the only thing that happened was that I expected something different (I had been on vacation, hearing some great players in NYC) and it took me a while to acclimate. That is, it was mostly mental.

And, that's why I should probably have an original D'Angelico and Jim Hall's GA50. That gear would eliminate the mental doubt -- I think. <g>

[destinytot]

Even the most critical musician I know, told me I got a great, clean and warm sound out of my rig the first time.

It's very encouraging to read about someone overcoming that problem in a band situation. (I've spent many hours this week with Grant Green playing loud on the stereo, trying to match his tone as closely as possible - and contrast against a Hammond.)

[Bluegrass Bill Ward]

I played my Super Eagle today. It sounds mighty woody and jazzy, even at high volume.

Only very recently I had thought I would be happy with the acoustic quality of my recently acquired D'Angelico EXL-1 with laminated top. I believe you commented on a post where I shared some music with it. Unfortunately I have come to the conclusion I was trying to convince myself it was pretty good, then decided it was Ok, and my satisfaction has just continued to go downhill over the last several days of playing it. I have come to the conclusion I need to face reality, it is just not going to cut it. I have to set my bar higher! Would you agree that instruments like the Super Eagle and Golden Eagle set the bar for great acoustic "Woody and Jazzy" sound? Many Thanks! Bill

[sgosnell]

No archtop is going to sound anything like a Martin flat top. Can't happen, the designs are entirely different. If you're used to playing bluegrass on a flat top, the sound of any archtop will be radically different. Better or worse depends on your ears, but it will be different.

[artdecade]

This sounds like an easy-fix! You have to use - apart from the pickup - another microphone which will make the acoustic qualities shine. Here's a video of Anythony Wilson...

That's what I was going to suggest as well.

Continue using the Phil Jones with the mag pickup and then mic up the body and send that tone out to an acoustic amp. I think Phil Jones makes a larger Cub with two channels. Maybe you could send both the mag and mic tones directly into that and mix them for the room.

[rlrhett]

No archtop is going to sound anything like a Martin flat top. Can't happen, the designs are entirely different. If you're used to playing bluegrass on a flat top, the sound of any archtop will be radically different. Better or worse depends on your ears, but it will be different.

+1

I help teach a class on archtop construction as a part of the lutherie program at Palomar College. We get a large proportion of students who think a guitar is a guitar and an archtop is just a cool looking version.

An acoustic archtop is as different from a flattop dreadnaught as a dreadnaught is from a classical guitar. One reason the Martin dred became the guitar of choice during the Greenwich folk music era of the late fifties and early sixties is because a Martin flat top has a characteristic sparkling highs and boomy lows with a "scooped" midrange. Perfect for self accompanying a singer songwriter. A great sound that is hard to reproduce on any other style of guitar.

An archtop is far more well balanced with clear midrange. It works in an ensemble without competing with a bass player or horns. It can really sing with single line notes in the same range as a vocalist. If you are used to a dreadnaught you will find that "punchy". I think it is amazing in its bell like clarity and can't be beat if you play as a solo instrumentalist or in an acoustic trio.

That said, it was only a few decades after they were first mass produced that someone slapped a pickup on an archtop. The acoustic qualities of archtops seem to have had little interest or development since then. Most archtops are electric guitars whose tone may (or may not) be colored by the sympathetic resonances of a hollow body.

I personally love the acoustic qualities of a truly acoustic archtop. A good 1930's Epiphone DeLuxe would be my dream guitar to own and play. In my own small way as a builder have tried to push the acoustic qualities of an archtop forward. But I admit it is rare that I find an archtop today that has an acceptable acoustic sound. I consider a Chinese laminate guitar with two inset pickups to be a fancy electric guitar. For that I made myself a Tele clone with a single CC pickup in the neck. Sounds great, built to last, easy to carry.

Classical/steel string dred/Archie/electrics are different beasts with different uses. You wouldn't play a 335 unplugged for its acoustic tone, and you wouldn't play a Martin at your classic rock gig. But if you want to play solo, especially in the "chord melody" style of Joe Pass or Martin Taylor, a good ACOUSTIC archtop can't be beat.


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[coolvinny]

The other night I played for about 80 people in a large, open art space using a 1941 L7, DeArmond RC 1100 replica, and Phil Jones Super Cub amp.

At home, the guitar and this setup sounds absolutely fantastic, wonderful when it's set for just enough volume so you can hear both the acoustic qualities and the electric sound of a pick up --- basically not very loud but loud enough to really hear the sweetness of both sounds.

I've come to the sad realization that you might as well use any plank or slab guitar for playing a large room like that. It wasn't that my L7 was not loud enough, it was loud enough. But when the volume is cranked up, the guitar sounds like shit in terms of fundamentallly losing its aforementioned sweet tone that mixes the acoustic sound with a little bit of the electric sound .

Basically an electric Guitar sounds like any other electric guitar in a large enough space. i'm sure I'm doing something wrong.

Pretty sure someone below will have commented on this, but sometimes a laminate is the way to go. Having said that, some carved tops (even with floaters - Bernstein's obviously but even my Hopkins comes to mind) do a damn fine job at loud volumes. Putting the amp on a chair or something (not on the floor) helps. With a laminate, some extra space between the HB and the strings helps keep some acousticness and air around the notes even at louder volumes; too close and it will sound very electric.

[Bluegrass Bill Ward]

+1

I help teach a class on archtop construction as a part of the lutherie program at Palomar College. We get a large proportion of students who think a guitar is a guitar and an archtop is just a cool looking version.

An acoustic archtop is as different from a flattop dreadnaught as a dreadnaught is from a classical guitar. One reason the Martin dred became the guitar of choice during the Greenwich folk music era of the late fifties and early sixties is because a Martin flat top has a characteristic sparkling highs and boomy lows with a "scooped" midrange. Perfect for self accompanying a singer songwriter. A great sound that is hard to reproduce on any other style of guitar.

An archtop is far more well balanced with clear midrange. It works in an ensemble without competing with a bass player or horns. It can really sing with single line notes in the same range as a vocalist. If you are used to a dreadnaught you will find that "punchy". I think it is amazing in its bell like clarity and can't be beat if you play as a solo instrumentalist or in an acoustic trio.

That said, it was only a few decades after they were first mass produced that someone slapped a pickup on an archtop. The acoustic qualities of archtops seem to have had little interest or development since then. Most archtops are electric guitars whose tone may (or may not) be colored by the sympathetic resonances of a hollow body.

I personally love the acoustic qualities of a truly acoustic archtop. A good 1930's Epiphone DeLuxe would be my dream guitar to own and play. In my own small way as a builder have tried to push the acoustic qualities of an archtop forward. But I admit it is rare that I find an archtop today that has an acceptable acoustic sound. I consider a Chinese laminate guitar with two inset pickups to be a fancy electric guitar. For that I made myself a Tele clone with a single CC pickup in the neck. Sounds great, built to last, easy to carry.

Classical/steel string dred/Archie/electrics are different beasts with different uses. You wouldn't play a 335 unplugged for its acoustic tone, and you wouldn't play a Martin at your classic rock gig. But if you want to play solo, especially in the "chord melody" style of Joe Pass or Martin Taylor, a good ACOUSTIC archtop can't be beat.


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Thanks for the great comments! It is probably from my many years of playing a flattop and a love for great acoustic quality that the "acoustic quality" of my first arch top, while being different than my D-18, is still so important to me.
I have played a number of arch tops and listened to demos of many more. I certainly hear and recognize “great sound” from an archtop played acoustically. Here is one example of whatI consider great acoustic sound from the Heritage Golden Eagle played acoustically. I have come to the conclusion that I will not come close to this quality of sound unless I consider Guitars in this same class of cost/quality.

By the way I do play in a trio with mandolin and fiddle and we are anxious to add some jazz standards to our music which includes just about everything but jazz right now. <g>

Bill

[citizenk74]

Archtops are indeed wonderful instruments. They have just one insurmountable characteristic, which may detract from the player's enjoyment - the person sitting 20' away in the audience can hear it better than the player. A player may be disappointed in the sound of his or her instrument, but that is because they are too close and in the wrong position to hear it in its full glory. Only by recording with quality equipment or playing in a corner ala Robert Johnson can they hope to get a clearer picture, so to speak, of what their guitar actually sounds like. Kinda sucks, a little, but there it is. That is why whenever any of my guitar playing friends come over, I always cajole them into playing one or more of my archtops, so I can bask a bit and restore my faith in the instrument.

[rlrhett]

Archtops are indeed wonderful instruments. They have just one insurmountable characteristic, which may detract from the player's enjoyment - the person sitting 20' away in the audience can hear it better than the player. A player may be disappointed in the sound of his or her instrument, but that is because they are too close and in the wrong position to hear it in its full glory. Only by recording with quality equipment or playing in a corner ala Robert Johnson can they hope to get a clearer picture, so to speak, of what their guitar actually sounds like. Kinda sucks, a little, but there it is. That is why whenever any of my guitar playing friends come over, I always cajole them into playing one or more of my archtops, so I can bask a bit and restore my faith in the instrument.

One word: "soundport". That is why all of mine have them.

You should get a luthier to build you an archtop with a soundport. I understand not wanting to cut a hole into a vintage guitar. Maybe there is somebody here on this very forum who could build you an acoustic archtop with a soundport....




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[rio]

Regarding plywood and live sound, I have a little story.

After I got my '70 L5 I was pretty happy with my sound. I had worked hard on getting a good sound out of my guitars up until then but that guitar really completed what I was looking for. This year I got a 2000 Ibanez PM100 and from the very first time I brought it to a gig I have gotten unsolicited compliments about the sound. People who were used to my sound on the L5 and other guitars, although they said that they liked the L5 too, as well as others that I had not played with before were complimenting my live sound and I heard it too. Sure it is not as detailed as the L5 but with an organ quartet at high volume or other combos with different configurations it was easy to hear the difference. I was amazed myself the first gig I took it on at how clear everything sounded and how well it fit in without needing to do anything except plug into the amp.

So I also think that the choice of the kind of archtop is important. I will bring my L5 to quieter gigs and even medium volume gigs but if I want a sure thing and I'm not sure what the venue sounds like or anything else then you better bet I am bringing that PM100. And just for reference, same thing with my 2004 ES-175, '77 lawsuit 175 etc. - that kind of plywood archtop just kills it for higher volume group playing.


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