Thomastik Infeld String Problems

[ptchristopher3]

String trees of course were really a way to deal with the downside of the headstock design. The idea is to get sufficient downforce in the nut slots. They do not at all fine tune compliance.

In my opinion, Fermat's Principle of Least Time is bewildering and remarkable. Guitars are a blast to work on and play but not a bewildering set of interactions in setup or use. My opinion.

The slightly tricky thing about Fender nuts is that you do best to get the angle of the slot pretty close to ideal. The nut is so short (along the string length) and the break angles are both varying string to string, and somewhat modest. So very good decisions on the slot angle gives much better nut life, and tuning stability when whammy-ing.

I woke up this morning certain that I would not say "nut life" today. Shows you how wrong you can be.

Chris

[ptchristopher3]

Was just thinking about a major Strat overhaul I did in May. The old string trees were very nicely worn in which can be very helpful for tuning stability with vibrato. I ended up raising the D/G tree a bit to reduce friction not on the nut but on the tree itself. This plus a new Tusq nut made for very stable tuning post-whammy.

In the end the break angle at the nut was somewhat similar for all strings. The unfortunate added friction of the string trees is really not a practical problem in my opinion.

Of course Floyd Rose users will think otherwise maybe.

Hi Neatomic, I definitely understand your enthusiasm for the multiple factors in a setup. I just am enthusiastic in a different way.

Chris

[neatomic]

hey ptc3, always appreciate your informed posts and experienced thoughts...ultimately, i think we are both out for a fine sounding guitar..by any means necessary!!

We always did feel the same
We just saw it from a different point
Of view
Tangled up in blue
- Bob Dylan


& i like blue! haha

cheers

[ptchristopher3]

Same here Nea'.

Just wanted to make sure we can freely find different views with noses remaining more or less in the original joint positions.

Thanks.

If we agree all the time it is no fun and no benefit to others.

[neatomic]

to just expand a bit on my previous post--

here's another example of the way guitar manufacturers have dealt with string angle from nut to tuning peg...in this case via godin.. but the style/idea was/is fairly common




in addition, guitar manufacturers have long dealt with the string angles on the tailpiece/bridge side with greater variety...

think of fenders 1959 short lived attempt at the toploading tele bridge rather than stringthrough...only difference exists in small area behind the bridge ie. the angle!!!...players have always wanted the stringthrough...jim campilongo is one of the few who used toploader and here's what he said about it-

Let’s talk gear, Jim. Do you have a favorite guitar, amp and effect, and why they are your favorites?

Without any doubt, it’s my old and trusty Fender toploader Telecaster from 1959 and a Fender Blackface Princeton Reverb amp from the mid-‘60s. This combination works perfectly for me. The Fender toploader Telecaster was only produced in 1959, and the feel and sound of this guitar is a bit more “rubbery” than a standard Telecaster, more unique. ... (my bold)

^ from- Jim Campilongo, NYC Telemaster

jazzmasters are notorious for poor tailpiece to bridge angle (especially with modern light strings)...two of the common mods are to move the trem closer to the bridge to increase the angle...check out the j mascis jm's...there's also popular aftermarket devices which add a bar to increase the angle



and of course bigsbys have long added the extra roll bar to increase the break angle over the bridge saddle..the difference between the B7 vs B6, or B11 vs. B12 etc etc...also why they have so many different models and mounting options...





even the epi frequensator comes down to angles



and of course the classic gibson stop tailpiece..which has height adjustment bolts for a reason!!..try raising the stop tailpiece high..so that the angle from it to the bridge is shallow...it will immediately affect tone and feel...then screw it down all the way..so that the angle is steep...completely different feel and tone!



cheers

[neatomic]

Just wanted to make sure we can freely find different views with noses remaining more or less in the original joint positions.

always!...i've been hunched over guitars too long, for my nose to point up!!! hahaha..not my style anyways...






cheers

[silverfoxx]

Neatomic,
I must tell you that, having followed your suggestions re, angles
of the strings, nut to Tuners, and bridge to tailpiece etc., I have
successfully eliminated the "differences" with the same strings
tension issues on similar guitars. My L5ces had a very
different feel to my Wesmo , both strung with T1.12's .After
adjustments to the trussrod. and reduction of the angle between
the bridge and tailpiece by raising /lowering the bridges ,both
of the Gibsons now have an identical feel to the tension and the
additional benefit of much easier playability and improved tone.

I will raise the metaphorical glass to you.
Cheers

[neatomic]

fantastic!! very happy to hear sf!! (slightly blushing..) thanks!!

but really just passing what i learned/researched...(never cease to dig further!)..i'll always try to pass what i learned from years of digging through the masters...and some things i worked out myself, with years of constant study/research and hands on experience ..but i always remain open to learning more..as you all should!!

guitars are magic..never forget

cheers

[Max405]

but really just passing what i learned/researched...(never cease to dig further!)..i'll always try to pass what i learned from years of digging through the masters...and some things i worked out myself, with years of constant study/research and hands on experience ..but i always remain open to learning more..as you all should!!

guitars are magic..never forget

cheers

neatomic, the snipped paragraph above epitomizes you. We all thank you for your class and never ending desire to help and share.. the sentence below the paragraph is a fact and can never be said better.
once mastered, the instrument can rival any potion ever created. JD

[neatomic]

thanks so much for the kind words, Joe D...much appreciated...

the way you evoke the master -johnny smith- with your own wonderful playing is magical indeed!


cheers

[andyb]

Neatomic.

I have been following this thread with some interest, so the tail piece on my broadway is part of the reason it feels easier to play than the Telecaster, although it has 14s on where the tele has 12s?

Interesting stuff, thanks for the insight much appreciated.

[Peter C]

Hallo!

Hello Thomastik Infeld people. In case anyone from your esteemed company is reading all this, I'd like to make a request:

PLEASE MAKE A .012, .016, .024, .032, .042, .052 (or .054) SET LIKE EVERYONE ELSE .. and I will never even look at another manufacturer again. So there. Talking about the Jazz Swings, by the way.

Please continue as you were.

[Dennis D]

Hallo!

Hello Thomastik Infeld people. In case anyone from your esteemed company is reading all this, I'd like to make a request:

PLEASE MAKE A .012, .016, .024, .032, .042, .052 (or .054) SET LIKE EVERYONE ELSE .. and I will never even look at another manufacturer again. So there. Talking about the Jazz Swings, by the way.

Please continue as you were.

* And *

.013, .017, .026, .035, .045, .056

Thanks Peter !

(( Funny how no one ever tells TI ' and make them sell for the price of Chromes '. They just ask TI to ' give us what we use and we'll pay your price. ' ))

[Jabberwocky]

Hallo!

Hello Thomastik Infeld people. In case anyone from your esteemed company is reading all this, I'd like to make a request:

PLEASE MAKE A .012, .016, .024, .032, .042, .052 (or .054) SET LIKE EVERYONE ELSE .. and I will never even look at another manufacturer again. So there. Talking about the Jazz Swings, by the way.

Please continue as you were.

* And *

.013, .017, .026, .035, .045, .056

Thanks Peter !

(( Funny how no one ever tells TI ' and make them sell for the price of Chromes '. They just ask TI to ' give us what we use and we'll pay your price. ' ))

In T-I's world, these are BASS guitar gauges!

[Max405]

thanks so much for the kind words, Joe D...much appreciated...
the way you evoke the master -johnny smith- with your own wonderful playing is magical indeed!
cheers

thanks bro. JD

[Peter C]

(( Funny how no one ever tells TI ' and make them sell for the price of Chromes '. They just ask TI to ' give us what we use and we'll pay your price. ' ))

Ha, last time I looked, TI prices were close to Chromes here in Euroland.

[Peter C]

Deutsch-Übersetzung

Hallo Thomastik. Bitte machen Sie Sätze (Jazz Swings):

0.12, .016, .024, .032, .042, .052 (oder.054)
und
.013, .017, .026, .035, .045, .056

Für Dennis und mich

Vielen Dank

[neatomic]

Neatomic.

I have been following this thread with some interest, so the tail piece on my broadway is part of the reason it feels easier to play than the Telecaster, although it has 14s on where the tele has 12s?

(being that they are both 25.5 scale)..in a word- yes...fender was from the southern california c&w, western swing scene...when he designed the tele he had the lap steel in mind...his close partner and cohort freddie tavares was a lap steel player....lap steels have high tension and high action...they also have a similar bridge pickup setup..and are going for a very solid planky tone...teles also use string tree or discs

freddie t-


its no wonder that the first slinky strings were made by ernie ball in conjunction with the great tele-master-james burton!! burton had been using a banjo string for his hi e and moving the entire set up...he later came to use 8-38's or 40's!!

the frequensator tailpiece used by epi was designed by herb sunshine..he was going for a completely different large acoustic piano tone...he was trying to change the harmonic and string vibrations by changing the lengths ie and therefore the angles

epi advertised it as- greater clarity, truer tone, eliminates deadspots


but remember, as i always say..everything counts when it comes to guitars...so neck/body joint angle, headstock angle, fretwork and shape of neck etc. etc. also contribute to the feel

cheers

[neatomic]

thomastik calibrates their string sets by tension not gauge...they believe they have the perfect formula for every set

years ago john hall of rickenbacker guitars realized that thomastik was the closest string left to the old maxima strings that rics used to come with...pure nickel flats...he negotiated with thomastik for them to become oem string maker for ric, provided they change some gauges...they turned him down!!!

thomastik is venerable old european string company...they don't make changes to what they think they have done traditionally correct

be thankful you got the george benson line!!! haha


cheers

[Peter C]

There usually seems to be a correlation between gauge and tension, for a given string type.

Curiously, the TI rock guitar sets sport similar sizes to D'Addario, with their "typical" 10-46 reflecting the old "chuck the 6th and stick a banjo string on top" trick (.010 .013 .017 .026w .036 .046). They even offer the "light top, heavy bottom" option and, without having made a detailed study, I would say the tensions in these sets are all over the place, which is fine by me. Like some other players (how many?), I'm used to a hump in tension between the 3rd and the 5th strings. The only reason I've come up with for manufacturers traditionally doing this is that you can get more of a "chug" on, thus avoiding string slap when hitting these strings hard - I really don't know .... but I like it that way.

Thomastik can do whatever they see fit, but I reckon they'd make a few more sales if they offered traditional gauges as an option in their "posh" sets

The Bensons are no solution - same problem!!

[neatomic]

i feel your pain..but you really can't compare d'addario flats with thomastik flats...gauge means little between the two, because they are so different to begin with...thomastik uses a very thin (low tension) steel (vintage style) round inner core, then wraps it with two!! wraps of soft pure nickel wrap...d'addario's use a steel hex core and a hard steel (chrome) wrap...so even if they measured at the same guage, they would still feel and sound completely different

kind of like comparing an apple and an orange just based on their closeness in size

pyramid makes pure nickel flats..and rotosound makes a monel (nickel derivative) flat...might want to try those..but their gauges are limited as well

all made in usa flats are stainless steel wrapped..and most with a hex core

cheers

[Peter C]

Most .024 gauge strings tuned to G are around 28 to 30 lbs tension (on a 25.5" scale neck), I believe. If you check out the TI JS .021 tension, you may be surprised to read that it isn't far behind, so actual string girth seems to be another factor (for me).

The Roto Monels I tried were nice acoustically, but rather nondescript plugged in. Your mileage may .....

[Dennis D]

Most .024 gauge strings tuned to G are around 28 to 30 lbs tension (on a 25.5" scale neck), I believe. If you check out the TI JS .021 tension, you may be surprised to read that it isn't far behind, so actual string girth seems to be another factor (for me).

The Roto Monels I tried were nice acoustically, but rather nondescript plugged in. Your mileage may .....

The string girth is the factor for me too......

Regardless of how ( JS ) TI's are made, wrapped or their material, their 'tension advantage' measured by a set only comes from 2 strings - -3 & 4.
Strings 1 & 2 - -industry-wide, regardless of manufacturer, if plain steel, are almost all similar if not identical in tension.
Strings 5 & 6 - again flats - are within pounds when gauges are similar - -and Chromes & Pyr. Golds are actually less than TI .056.

So all the 'reduced tension' and 'increased playability' by 'set' only comes from strings 3 & 4 -which are noticeably thinner than the industry uses.

If this is their selling tool and / or is this is all they offer, oh well, I guess.

But there isn't any secret sauce.

[silverfoxx]

I have received a further reply from Heinz
Kovacs of Thomastik -Infeld . Which reads
" thank you for your suggestion "( which was
to offer an alternative to the Brass Coated
and Tin 1st & 2nd strings of the JS112 sets
to plain /stainless steel)" and we propose to
discuss this option with the management of
our Company"


I feel sure that they will advise us of their
decision in due course.

[Max405]

Silverfox,
Thanks for all you've done with this.
Just the mere fact that the brass over at Thomastik is listening and responding is enough for me. Most companies who make the best product and know it (I don't know, maybe Gibson comes to mind) would give you an answer like, "you will use what we give you and you will like it..".

As I've stated in the past, I was under the impression that the B and E strings were brass and not brass coated. My own issue is caused mainly because I like really low action and a relatively straight neck.

SF - you went above and beyond. Your are one of the reasons this place is so great.

JD