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absolutely..why you always want to check for neck relief at the mid point between holding down at the first fret and the fret where the neck joins the body...after that, neck hump discrepancies are a completely different issue..
Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
but one thing at a time!
guitar setup is completely holistic..everything matters!!
cheers
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06-28-2017 07:18 PM
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Gibson's are world famous for tail rises also. I am always happy when I get one with a slight fretboard down slope from the neck joint to the 20th though it will effect intonation with a down slope when playing up high. Still the down slope will allow feeler gauge action as long as the rest of the neck is straight with a proper neck angle. When you have that slight downward fretboard tongue you can usually also have zero relief without any playing issues.
As Wes Montgomery said "the guitar is a imperfect instrument ".
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If a guitar is set up perfectly with very low frets, and then has the frets replaced with taller ones, the nut slots are probably too low after the refret, and nut work may be necessary. It's not certain, but very possible. This would likely be manifested by a buzz at the first fret, but possibly at other frets, depending on the setup.
Stainless steel strings aren't necessarily a good idea. The alloy would have different properties than plain steel, and might change the tone quite a bit. The tensile strength would also change, as well as the bending properties. String manufacturers use the materials they use for good reasons. I really don't know the exact properties stainless steel strings would have, because stainless steel varies widely, with hundreds of different alloys available, all with somewhat different properties. The very thin coating protects the strings well enough for the length of time necessary, but wears off soon enough for the manufacturers to sell new strings. I can't detect any difference in feel between tin and copper coatings, but maybe others have super sensitivity that I don't have.
FWIW, I've been using the locking string technique for more than 50 years, and I prefer it. The strings stay in tune better for me, because they don't have the long windings around the post, which can shift and stretch over time. But everyone is free to string their guitars however they want, and I have no interest at all in how anyone else does it.
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In my case, the nut was removed, a small shim was glued to it and then it was glued back in place.
Just to clear something up..
My GJS is perfect now, after I added a little healthy relief. The High e was changed to an elixir.
Tonight, my 165 buzzed a little. 10th fret, high E. The relief was fine. So I changed the string to an elixir. No buzz.
No brainer. It's the string.
Joe D
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The right side of the pond? I must be on the wrong side then - i ordered some Elixir high E's for CHF 3.40, making it approx. $ 3.55 per string. For that they'd better last a good while ;-). Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Sorry to depress you further Jazznote, the Elixirs in the UK are £1.39 each , and the JS112's £12.00 Originally Posted by JazzNote
per set. from the right suppliers.
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Vinny , are you blessed with perfect pitch recognition, I have met one or two people who do . Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
one said it is a curse in that he identifies the pitch of every sound , which I suppose could be
very annoying . Most of us have relative pitch hearing, Or am I the odd one out?
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I would call it perfect tone recognition but probably just for my ears only. I think I have ears like a dog. I have walked out of many concerts because the tone was bad. Even walked out on Joe Pass when he was getting a horrible tone out of his JP20. Tone is just as important as playing skills.......IMO Originally Posted by silverfoxx
I think your ear does get trained though. I rarely use a guitar tuner and when I play with piano I just tune to the piano but will be quick to note if the piano is out of tune.
I do not have perfect pitch. I will need to play 1-5 notes to figure out the key of a song I am hearing.
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$1.19 Elixir Anti-Rust Plain Steel Single Guitar Strings Originally Posted by JazzNote
Way wrong for Elixir. But right for T-I.
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Max, instead of changing strings, have you tried just raising the bridge a little? Just turning a wheel an eighth of a turn or so can make a big difference on mine. I have to do it a lot, as the temp and humidity changes. Sometimes I can go down just a little, sometimes I have to raise it a little. In the past week, with constant heavy rain, I've had to raise the bridge on 3 of my archtops. Not much, but just a little. The bridge is the quickest and easiest adjustment you can make, and I do it a lot. Having one of the wrenches Stew-Mac sells makes it eaiser. I also have a saddle jack that I made from a paint can opener, by bending the tip a little. That makes adjustment easy, but I mostly only use it for big adjustments. Stew-Mac sells those also, but for a lot more money than free.
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Sgosnell,
Thanks. Its funny you mention adjusting the bridge. The easiest bridge I've ever adjusted is the bridge on my Gibson Johnny Smith. Even under load, the thumb wheel really does turn very easily with my thumb. It has brass sleeves that shroud the threaded rods. Great design. For sure.
Yeah, I've adjusted the bridge and the buzz goes away. But then what I am left with is higher action, which I am not a fan of.
My 3 remaining guitars and their setups are very precise. I am blessed to own them. I am probably too picky about action. Some of the greatest guitars I've ever had were great because of the low action that I can have on them without fret buzz. I
wouldn't be a part of this discussion if I was man enough to step up the 13's... Kidding aside, I really enjoy the feathertouch tension on the TI12 Jazz Swings and its no big deal for me to swap out the E String. Heck, when I grow up, I might even put a 13 high E on the TI12 set..
Thanks for trying to help buddy and everyone else who took time out of there life to try and help out. I do appreciate it. That's what its all about here.
Joe D
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amen! Originally Posted by Max405
(& let's keep it that way!!)
cheers
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Joe, no offense but, did you even try so far? When i changed my 13 on the Swing 13 set to a 14 on the LeGrand i barely noticed a difference in feel. Just the improvement in sound. I bet you wouldn't notice much difference going from 12 to 13 either. Originally Posted by Max405
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I think the neck set has a lot to do with it. I have 4 L5's and you can put the same T1 12's on them and they all feel different string tension wise. The L5P I just got the 12's feel like 10's. I definitely need to bump up to 13's on that one.
I also have a L5 were TI 12's feel like 13's.........weird or maybe it is time to take away my belt and shoe laces and put me in a padded room.
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just be aware that the amount of neck relief is directly related to the tension of the strings...(plus other environmental factors ie. temp and humidity as well)
going to heavier strings can cause the neck to bow,..lighter strings let it straighten more flat..so any time moving from one gauge of string to another...its good to tweak the rod a tad (a day or 2 after it settles)..
sometimes just the minutest fraction of an inch can totally change the feel..and you really can't tell just by looking at it
guitars require much attention for consistent optimum results...tho of course there are also those that can make even a horribly setup guitar sing...but why not have both!!! hah
cheers
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My L5's needed a few trussrod tweaks when they were new but now they never move. Always perfect relief regardless of temp, humidity or 13's or 12's. I don't go heavier than 13's. The 5 ply necks are pretty solid once they have seasoned or at least mine are. The get a tad straighter in the winter but very slight. Just speaking my axes. Every axe is different and needs regular care indeed. I live in a very mild climate with perfect humidity.
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i had 13's on my Solid Formed. They were ok. I like my 12's better. Originally Posted by JazzNote
But I might try the 13. That might actually work.
Joe D
Neatomic, just the high E for me bro. Not the whole set. I like the 12's. Originally Posted by neatomic
Joe D
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yeah i read you joe D..was just talking in general
glad you worked it out!
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 06-30-2017 at 12:16 AM.
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You are not alone with that conundrum, thought I was imagining it, got exactly the same problem. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
so come on Neatomic, .... please put us out of our misery with your considered opinion
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if you have two identical scale guitars with the same exact gauge strings on them & similar action, and they feel different "tension" wise, then it comes down to angles...the angles from nut to tuning pegs and the angle from bridge saddle to tailpiece...and the angle which the neck meets the body...while theoretically they dont actually change the "tension", they certainly do change the "tension feel"
i've cured a buzzy low E string many times by increasing the angle of the string downward from the nut to tuner...by wrapping more wraps around the tuning post
with time many tailpieces lift more off the body due to string tension..its gradual, but occurs..that's when you start to hear strange overtones..we just had thread about what people do to try to combat that..foam, grommets,felt,rope etc etc...but really no way to actualy change the angle except by adjusting (or even trading out) the bridge...raising the bridge helps with the overtone problem as it increases the angle...but that will translate to an increased "tension feel" to the strings..and besides there's only so high you can go before the action is compromised
why i always say, all details matter when it comes to guitars!!..really a complete mix of the right angles, nut slots, trussrod adjustment, bridge height, fretwork etc etc....
and then after all that it could be something as simple as a bad string!! haha..keep spares!!
hope that helps sf
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 06-30-2017 at 12:22 PM.
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Yes Neatomic, it certainly does , and thank you
for your usual detailed explanation for which I am grateful
and for your patience.
cheers, Silverfoxx
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Silverfoxx, i get the JS113 for CHF 14.50 recently, which makes £11,6444 each. So being on the wrong side of the pond and too much south for the Elixirs can't really depress me. Originally Posted by silverfoxx
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The design of the guitar effects the length of the string from the nut to the tuning post and from the saddle to the anchor point of the tailpiece. The varying amount of length of this "extra" string has an effect on the "tension feel" of the string to the player. The feel is influenced by the amount of string compliance. There is more string compliance with a longer string. String tension is a fixed measurement, string compliance is a dynamic measurement. This is one reason two guitars with the same scale length can feel different to the player. If you do a lot of string bending you know about string compliance. A reverse headstock on a Strat will reverse the effect of string compliance on the E strings.
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Hi Matt,
Interesting that you use the Strat as an example.
In modern parlance "tension" continues to mean what it always did (which is comforting), the longitudinal tension of a given string at a given pitch. Tension is not changed by overall string length, break angles, etc.
As you mention, "compliance" refers to the lateral pressure needed to move a string a given distance. To the fret being the most common distance we worry about as players.
So two things:
The vibrato bridge on a Strat is part of the compliance. As you fret or bend a string, the bridge can and does move slightly to make moving a given string a given lateral distance slightly easier.
AND
Compliance has an added wrinkle. Greater compliance can make fretting a given string noticeable easier. But (and it's a big butt) if you want to bend a given string to a given higher pitch, added compliance simply means you need to move the string farther to get to the new pitch. The total lateral force needed to move a given string up say a half step is the same regardless of compliance. You just need to move it farther to get to the target pitch.
So Jimi had to push just as hard on the high E and B to bend a note as you do. But he pushed over a lesser lateral distance.
Play a Gretsch with a bigsby and bend some notes. You will see the arm dip as you emote through your solo in "Red House".
*********
As for things like turns on the tuner post affecting compliance, this requires a number of somewhat remarkable things to happen. The break angle over the nut would have to change to a rather great extent, and the friction in the nut slot would have to be almost supernatually low to allow to you feel the REDUCED complaince of more tuner post turns.
Further, the nut slot would have to be cut in a way that allows the greater break angle at the back of the nut to translate to a measurable difference at the front of the nut - in both downward force and overall friction.
Chris
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that just the point, remarkable things do happen all the time when it comes to guitars...set up and playing!! hah....it's a remarkable instrument! Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
someone better have told leo fender that the angle from nut to tuners doesn't affect anything..he wasted a lot of money & time on string trees
cheers
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