Gibson ES-175 vs. its clones. Worth it or not?

[GregMath]

I know this is the topic of many threads and I've read many of them. However, I really haven't read one that has answered the questions I have.

I currently have a 50's ES-125 with a P-90 that I'm very happy with, but I have been recently itching to get a Gibson ES-175 with humbuckers (probably a Norlin era one because I don't want to spend more). However, with so many clones out there that are reasonably highly-regarded (the late 70's/ early 80's Ibanez guitars, for example), I'm debating if it's worth spending the extra cash. I have no doubt that a real 175 is better (assuming it's a good one because I've heard mixed stories about them), but is it really worth double what the clones go for? Is the difference that profound? Put differently, would you rather have a real 175 or two nice clones? Does anyone have a strong opinion on what the best copy out there is?

I understand the drive to get the nicest possible version of something, but as an extremely value-oriented person, it's tough for me to justify spending double on something unless the difference is significant.

Thanks for your thoughts!

[rio]

Tomorrow I am getting an es-175 and I intend to make a video tomorrow night or at the latest over the weekend comparing it to my '77 D'Agostino (a 175 lawsuit guitar made side by side with the Ibanez lawsuits) and 2000 PM100 (which, while not a lawsuit guitar, is based on Metheny's 175). I am very curious how they will all compare since I have never had a "real" 175 before.

That said, just based on sound alone, I think the lawsuits get close. The feel of mine he is totally different from a 175 though - different neck shape, radius, and some other things like no internal bracing and a sound post. The PM100 does feel like a 175 to me, from my limited exposure to them - at least the neck does. And although his tone is very much his own, there are a couple of quotes challenging listeners to tell which tracks on a couple of albums were with his 175 and which were with his Ibanez. I will have a better idea tomorrow how they compare when I actually have them all side by side but right now, the D'Agostino lawsuit is a decent guitar that is cool but is only externally a copy of a 175 and the PM100 doesn't look like a 175 but feels like one in a lot of ways as well as sounding like one (Metheny's to be exact) and it feels like a very high quality instrument that is a pleasure to play.

I know that doesn't answer your question but I hope it helps a little. I'll put up the video soon with the comparison and hopefully that will help too. I was go by through the same thing you were a few years ago and that is when I ended up with my D'Agostino.


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[tonedeaf]

In have owned an Epiphone ES 175 and a Gibson ES 175. I did not find any single "killer" differences between the two. In the end I found that the sum of the smaller differences led me to believe that the Gibson is worth it.

[GregMath]

Interesting. Thanks, guys. I am really looking forward to watching the video you make, rio.

[docbop]

I've had two Gibson 175's over the decades. First I got because found it when on tour in a tiny music store the didn't want much for it. The neck was too thin for my taste so I sold it about five years later. A couple years ago I got a '99 Gibson 175 in a trade because I liked the chunky neck. Both guitars I had another guitar and picked up Gibson 175 because they were good or great deals. So if you already have a good guitar and just want a Gibson 175 be patient, keep your eyes open and a good deal. If you don't have another guitar sound the Epi or Eastman are nice guitars for the money. But I wouldn't spend the money on the Epi or Eastman if you have a main guitar already and the Epi/Eastman are just filler guitar till you get a real 175. Keep you money available for when you find a great deal.


Also Gibson has made 175's for many decades and they've gone through changes in neck shapes, Hog's and maple, tailpiece, pickups, so you want to try to play 175's from different eras. If you can't play them do your homework and find the years that sound like what you want. Be an informed buyer, it saves money and frustration.

[GregMath]

Honestly, this was the direction I was leaning before I created this thread, docbop. I think this is very good advice. It's nice to hear someone else say it too. I believe this is probably an itch I'll have to scratch at some point. However, I'll do my best to be patient and wait for a good time. I was also thinking it would probably be best to wait until a good forum member here is ready to part with one of their 175's anyway. This way I can expect it to be of good quality. In the meantime, I'll try to play as many as I can so that I know what I really want. Thanks!

[vintagelove]

I had an Eastman 371, very different from my 175. Not bad, but different.

[Stringswinger]

There is no one single 175. They vary from era to era to be certain. That said "ain't nothing like the real thing baby" applies.

[hotpepper01]

I find it hard to tell if the real deal is worth the difference moneywise. All I know is that clones never worked for me. In the end they allways left the building.

[Doublea A]

I do not have an ES175 but I do have a D'Angelico Excel 2DH. I replaced the original pickups with Gibson Classic 57s. It's a bit of a compromise but I love it.


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[djelley]

I had an Eastman 371, very different from my 175. Not bad, but different.

Agree 100%. I have three "real" ES-175's and two AR371's. All are great, but the 175's ARE that much better in my opinion. They feel great, play wonderfully and are just like butter. I'm toying with the idea of buying a fourth.

As an aside, I ordered an Epiphone 175 and couldn't send it back fast enough.

[jzjazz]

What about gettin a 165? You'll never use the bridge pickup anyway. It has a different pickup (490R), but this can be easily replaced. And it is available at very good prices, in Europe <2000 USD. I mean one with set-in humbucker, before 2004 (after that they've been sold with floating pickups). Moreover these aren't produced since 2013 and the prices seem to go up, so if you don't like it, you shouldn't loose too much.

This more of a question than it is advice - thinking about one myself

[vintagelove]

What about gettin a 165? You'll never use the bridge pickup anyway. It has a different pickup (490R), but this can be easily replaced. And it is available at very good prices, in Europe <2000 USD. I mean one with set-in humbucker, before 2004 (after that they've been sold with floating pickups). Moreover these aren't produced since 2013 and the prices seem to go up, so if you don't like it, you shouldn't loose too much.

This more of a question than it is advice - thinking about one myself

the Herb Ellis 165 is probably the best deal out there.

[Bill C]

as far as I'm aware the true clones are few and far between. The recipe includes ...

16" x c.3" laminate body
24.75" scale
rosewood fingerboard
(usually) mahogany neck

... oddly I've found very few alternatives. The best alternative may be an ES-125 - much less expensive , or a "Herb" as suggested by the previous poster

[Easy2grasp]

I have been toying with selling my Herb Ellis ES 165. It is a 1992 with the single humbucking mounted pick up. I have replaced the 490R with a classic '57, but I kept the 490R in case a future owner wanted to put it back on. It sounds like there might be some interest here. I will mull over what I want for it and put it in the for sale thread when I decide, or you can PM me to talk about it. It is a black guitar. I truly like it and that is why I am kind of lackadaisical about selling it. It is a nice player, but I recently got a Mark Lacey black guitar that he is repairing for me, so that will be my black guitar. Also, I have two '57 ES 175's, so I can maybe part with the 165 in the name of thinning out the herd.
Ted

[GregMath]

Hi, Easy2grasp. I might be interested. I will say that I sort of had my hopes set on getting an 80's 175 with the mahogany sides and back with vintage sunburst finish. However, I'm definitely intrigued by what you've described: and the pickup change sounds like a positive from what I hear.

[Easy2grasp]

Hi, Easy2grasp. I might be interested. I will say that I sort of had my hopes set on getting an 80's 175 with the mahogany sides and back with vintage sunburst finish. However, I'm definitely intrigued by what you've described: and the pickup change sounds like a positive from what I hear.

Ok. I've decided to list it in the for sale thread. I took some pictures this evening and will work on a description of it. I am going to ask $2100 for it with free shipping. It is in excellent shape as far as the finish and fret wear on it. It will come with the OHSC, and in the case pocket will be the 490R pick up and the original tune-o-matic bridge upper. As it is now it has a compensated ebony bridge sitting on the original rosewood lower bridge base. Thanks for your patience and just PM me for more info or to jump the for sale thread. It has a couple very minor finish flaws that I will try to highlight. It is very difficult to get good pictures of a shiny black guitar.
Ted

[rio]

I've never seen a black 165 - looks cool!


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[GregMath]

That is a cool looking 165. Very tempting! However, I'm probably going to try to take docbop's advice and try not to be too impulsive and wait until I find the right 175 for me. GLWTS though!

[Doublea A]

Ok. I've decided to list it in the for sale thread. I took some pictures this evening and will work on a description of it. I am going to ask $2100 for it with free shipping. It is in excellent shape as far as the finish and fret wear on it. It will come with the OHSC, and in the case pocket will be the 490R pick up and the original tune-o-matic bridge upper. As it is now it has a compensated ebony bridge sitting on the original rosewood lower bridge base. Thanks for your patience and just PM me for more info or to jump the for sale thread. It has a couple very minor finish flaws that I will try to highlight. It is very difficult to get good pictures of a shiny black guitar.
Ted

Definitely interested. I am thinking of how to justify a fifteenth guitar.


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[rio]

Definitely interested. I am thinking of how to justify a fifteenth guitar.


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Justify it to yourself or to a significant other? There are worse things you could spend 2 grand on after all.


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[rlrhett]

Ok. I've decided to list it in the for sale thread. I took some pictures this evening and will work on a description of it. I am going to ask $2100 for it with free shipping. It is in excellent shape as far as the finish and fret wear on it. It will come with the OHSC, and in the case pocket will be the 490R pick up and the original tune-o-matic bridge upper. As it is now it has a compensated ebony bridge sitting on the original rosewood lower bridge base. Thanks for your patience and just PM me for more info or to jump the for sale thread. It has a couple very minor finish flaws that I will try to highlight. It is very difficult to get good pictures of a shiny black guitar.
Ted

Wow! That IS a real stunner. Never seen that before.


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[yebdox]

Definitely interested. I am thinking of how to justify a fifteenth guitar.

That's easy: "It's only my 15th guitar!" Just be sure to play them all. The only ones I rarely touch are my travel guitars.

[Easy2grasp]

That is a cool looking 165. Very tempting! However, I'm probably going to try to take docbop's advice and try not to be too impulsive and wait until I find the right 175 for me. GLWTS though!

OK I have posted it in For Sale. Sorry I seemed to have hi jacked your thread. I think you are getting good advice from docbop. Keep looking for what suits you, keep in mind that in the early sixties the neck of ES175's got narrower until about 1967. Good luck!

[ThatRhythmMan]

Don't forget the other Herb Ellis, the Aria Pro II version. They were good enough for Herb to play as his stage guitar for years.