Super High Clean Headroom for Live Looping.

**jzucker** · 10-04-2017, 04:45 PM

get a genz benz shuttle 6 and a full range bass cab and be done!

**cosmic gumbo** · 10-04-2017, 10:38 PM

Those bridge only p90 guitars you are using could be a recipe for bright crunch or mud with about any rig. I had a Casino and couldn't use the bridge pup loud and clean. It either broke up or if I turned the guitar vol back a bit and turned the amp up to compensate, it was warm and muddy. Any amp.

**Boy_Narf** · 10-05-2017, 11:22 AM

Yes it's possible. Of course it's worse with my LP Studio than the LPJ.

I have an A/B setup on my board. A is the clean chain that goes through a Strymon Timeline --> Bluesky --> Rang III --> Clean Amp. B goes straight into the Rang III ---> Dirty Amp.

I suppose I could put an EQ pedal or something in the clean chain to "thin out" the P90's slightly or lower the gain hitting the amp. That way I could have my true signal going into my dirty side, and a "modified for headroom" signal going into my clean side. Could be an option.

The biggest issue is headroom for looping. Sure most amps stay clean while playing the guitar but after adding 5-6 layers the preamp starts to get pushed. This is why most folks think I'm crazy for looking for a 100 watt tube combo, or a 500-1000 watt SS combo. I need the preamp headroom not for volume, but for clarity. Most of the amps I've tried sound awesome and I've nearly bought them, but add in a few layers from the Rang III (or ditto if I don't have my board) and they always start to crunch up. As I've said I'm having the most luck running my SB500H and TC1510 bass rig as a clean amp. With the piezo up a bit it sounds nice and chiney. The issue is of course that it's a bass amp. I have a sound in my head that I'm trying to find, and just haven't found it yet.

I'm going to start looking into keyboard amps as the are designed to stay clean even with multiple layers of sound hitting the preamp. I'm also quite curious on the Twin Custom 15. I've read numerous reviews saying it's soo much better and cleaner than the standard 212 version, which I tried and found it either too muddy or too harsh in the top end. I've never seen the custom 15 in person though, and don't want to drop a non refundable 10% deposit just to test on out.

At this point I think I'm looking for a beautiful sounding amp to practice with at home. My main dirt rig that will never leave my house is a Rocker 30, PPC212, and PPC412 3/4 stack. I've not heard a better dirt sound in my life. For live/rehearsal I use a Tiny Terror with a Port City 212 cab, and I honestly think the bandit with the new speaker will do just fine for cleans. Heck the guitar player in my other band is frequently asked to turn down his blues Jr, so I should have no problem with the Bandit set low with PA support. So the clean dream amp for my home studio then... hmm... Maybe something like a YBA300 into a 412.

**ronjazz** · 10-05-2017, 04:57 PM

Bose L1.

**Boy_Narf** · 10-05-2017, 06:44 PM

was considering the L1 compact yea, but no mid range on that thing.

**Greentone** · 10-06-2017, 08:16 AM

You have elected to play the two muddied guitars I have ever played. They will get crunch out of any amp. Santana used Twin Reverb and big SS Acoustics in his P90 days and his tone was...distorted.

Peavey Session steel amps are, as Hammertone sais, loud and clean.

**Boy_Narf** · 10-06-2017, 11:19 AM

I would say my dirty sound is what takes priority over cleans any day. The buckers in the LPS are pretty muddy. It's a guitar that doesn't see much action these days. I spend most of my time alternating between my LPJ, Stratosonic Jr, and AmStd Tele. The P90 guitars sound soo good with my Orange amps. The Tele on the other hand doesn't have the same thickness or bite as the other two. I really only started up this project a few years ago, prior to that I didn't even use cleans so most of this is a new development. I would have assumed I could find an amp to fit the bill but it's not looking great. I think I'll revisit putting a compact EQ pedal in my clean chain to lower the signal hitting the preamp.

**Boy_Narf** · 10-17-2017, 11:27 AM

Hey folks, I just stumbled across this amp:

DV Mark Micro 50 Jazz Top - Thomann UK

By the name I'm guessing it be pretty clean! Anyone have experience with the combo version? Do they run out of volume quick only being 50 watts?

**Spook410** · 10-17-2017, 12:42 PM

Headroom may not even be the issue. You can't put too many layers into a 12" guitar speaker and expect clarity.

Powered PA speaker. EQ to taste.

**LeGrand** · 10-17-2017, 02:22 PM

FWIW, I have both the Bose L1 Compact and the bigger brother. Both are clean. The compact is around 125 watts ss and the bigger brother is for up to 300 people so probably 175 watt ss.

My Fender Jazzmaster Ultra Light is 250 watts ss and clean clean clean.

BUT, my Sound City Concord (30 watts Tube) with a pair of 12" Fanes is the loudest cleanest amp I have ever heard. It is a beast of brightness.

**Alter** · 10-17-2017, 04:56 PM

I 've used multi layer loopers with lots of distortion and even industrial sounds in theatre settings, and i always try to use an amp simulator, digital or analog, and then go direct to the pa. It works great. But when using an amp,your best shot is to put all the preamps, distortions and effects BEFORE the looping, and then go to the power amp or pa. Maybe thats the problem and not the headroom of the amp? Have you tried that? Things are bound to sound muddy and distorted if you hit any preamp with lots of input sounds and distortion loops.. Also i think speakers play a bigger part than the actual wattage of the amp, and i don't think these small, jazz oriented speakers and amps will handle metal distortion looped sounds well.

For example, my cheap and extra portable rehearsal rig for looping is a steinberger, going to a pedestrian pod xt for effects and sounds, then into a boss rc300 triple looper (or a small rc3 sometimes), then into the power amp of an aer compact 60 amp (bypassing its preamp). Works great.

Here's how it sounds, i think it was a rehearsal recorded with the camera's mic.

**pingu** · 10-17-2017, 08:45 PM

Omg a sound city concord !

I haven't see one of those for 40 odd years ...

Fab .....

**krusty** · 10-17-2017, 09:27 PM

Jazzmaster UL is clean, but through an 8ohm cab, it can suffer a bit. Through 4ohms it is better. I will chime in as the owner of some Quilter amps. I have a 101mini, a 101reverb and an OD200. The OD200 has far more headroom than the others, and if you wind up your guitar output almost full, and the gain on the clean channel most of the way, the amp can offset a muddy pickup. Some people consider it capable of excessive brightness, whereas the 101R has the opposite reputation. IMO, the voicing of the OD200 is similar to the 101R unless you are pushing the front end of it hard. When it starts to break up, you get a bit more brightness, which works very well as you move into true distortion and engage the bridge pickup, or even if you stay with the neck. A good OD pedal is key for maintaining the desired tone regardless of pickup choice - the Eclipse excels here.

Pedals into the front of the OD200 are fantastic. I'm currently using a Keeley Germanium Compressor Pro that I can set to a bit of gain with character, a Suhr Dual Boost and a Suhr Eclipse as well as a J Rockett Blue Note. Fabulous Fusion lead tones is all I can say. I only have one more tube amp, and it doesn;t seem to have much resale, so I'll keep it for now. The Quilters are all I need. I'm currently using a pair of 2x10 cabs, one with Eminence Ramrods and one with some engineering samples of Celestion neo guitar speakers (never seen 10" production versions). Either cab produces tight bass and immediate response. I have a set of Eminence EJ1250 speakers that I'm building a 2x12 for. Can't wait to hear the OD200 through those.

**pingu** · 10-18-2017, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by Alter

your best shot is to put all the preamps, distortions and effects BEFORE the looping, and then go to the power amp or pa. Maybe thats the problem and not the headroom of the amp? Have you tried that?

I totally agree with this Alter ....

Sounds like overloading the front of the pre-amp

**Boy_Narf** · 08-24-2018, 01:25 PM

Hello Everyone!

Jave been using the SB500H and TC1510 for a while now but the time just hasn't been doing it for me lately. I just stumbled across a Twin Custom 15 locally which is a pretty rare find. I plan to give it a playthrough tomorrow.

My effects are all before the looper. The only thing after is a distro box as the outputs from the looper are blocked by other pedals.

**Skip Ellis** · 08-24-2018, 01:36 PM

Anything by Evans or check the Steel Guitar Forum for a used Webb. Not cheap but it'll do what you want.

**Boy_Narf** · 08-27-2018, 06:17 PM

Hey folks,

So I think I've narrowed things down a little here. I think the issue with all of this are the cabs I've been using. I'm currently running a SD PS170 through my TC1510 bass cab with the tweeter on full. This cab has a frequency response up to 15K. What I'm looking for is my electric guitar to sound almost acoustic when I switch to clean, and the addition of a tweeter in my bass cab is making that happen. Most guitar cabs I've used seem to cut off around 5k. So that being said, what can you guys suggest for a portable combo, with decent headroom, and an adjustable horn or tweeter (or a response up around 15K)? I figure a PA cab @ 4 ohms would fit the bill, but I can't seem to find any with tweeter control.

I was thinking a keyboard or acoustic amp might work. I did have the Rosette 2X8 for a few months but it had barely any headroom with my electric. The always on limiter kicked in very quickly.

I've also tested it through a Bose L1M2B2 system and it sounds good with the Taylor T5 tone print. That said, it's still a bit more gear than I'm wanting to haul. Small combo with tweeter control would be ideal. The only thing I've found so far are the Henrickson combos. Is there anything else out there?

Thanks folks.

**Peter C** · 08-27-2018, 08:02 PM

Haven't read this thread in detail, but isn't this what the old JC120 excels at? I also plan to do some live looping soon, initially thru a Roland 80 Cube, if not it'll be a sim into the PA, and that's it.