Solid State amp for a Gibson ES-175 classic tone

[Oneofthe]

I apologize but I had a similar question after reading this thread most of it is answered.

The only question I have is why is no one recommending a JC-22, or JC-40? I currently have a Roland Blues Cube, can anyone please offer thoughts on that?

I'm new to Jazz and my Blues Cube may not be ideal for my Epiphone ES 175

Thanks.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I apologize but I had a similar question after reading this thread most of it is answered.

The only question I have is why is no one recommending a JC-22, or JC-40? I currently have a Roland Blues Cube, can anyone please offer thoughts on that?

I'm new to Jazz and my Blues Cube may not be ideal for my Epiphone ES 175

Thanks.

Recently, I was checking out a JC-40. I like the 2x10" size and loudness, but I think I'm over the JC tone. It's too clean for me. Someone once compared it to rubbing alcohol evaporating off your skin. I like a warmer tone.

[boatheelmusic]

Regarding your Hot Rod.....with a 175

turn treble and bass to 1, and mid on 4

replace the vi tube with a 5751, or at least plug into input 2 (lower gain).

Several threads here about getting best jazz tone out of this clan, powerful and reasonably priced tube amp.

spend the time to research them!

[Franz 1997]

Well, an example from my own life - the ZT Lunchbox is 200W.

That's actually:

Attachment 40739

If you ever plug this amp into an external speaker, please stand back a safe distance.

I used to plug into a small cab with great trepidation. That thing needs a 4 X 12. I'm assuming most jazz guitarists will be happy with something a little less..... Overpowered. It's like having a Marshall stack or something.

It gets very silly with the class D stuff.

I'm assuming the Mambo is similar - anyone had any experience with this?

I'm guessing as a jazzer, if you get a lightweight head, you probably want something you can run through a small cab. Get an efficient speaker and a 20W amp will be fine.

Now - I'm not an amp expert, so please shoot me down in flames if you have better info, but the way I understand it is this:

And no SS/Tube makes no difference. It's all on the efficiency of the speaker AFAIK.

1) Small amps with small speakers like the Lunchbox, Mambo etc put a lot of power into the bass to make the amps sound bigger and warmer... So the speaker is not so efficient necessarily, it's all about having a musical result. But you can make SS amps small and light now, so more power into a smaller speaker is a good approach for that type of super compact amp.

Not sure how it works with the AER alpha as that's only 40W, but that's still a lot I guess compared to, say a Fender Champ.

2) Many SS amps are cheap, and are therefore fitted with cheap, inefficient speakers. Speaker swap is probably the best mod you can do for any cheap amp...

Generally a fan of your stimulating and unusual posts Christian, but not sure what you're getting at here. Some facts wrong, e.g. lunchbox is actually 60W rms, they only quote the peak figure,, mambo is 180 or 400w rms depending, with a 10" which most players use. But 'class D a bit silly' ? Why?....a lot of power in a small box should be a good thing; acoustic image seem to do OK with their 500W amps, and have done for 10+ years.

There's no 'extra power' in the mambo bass, it's a polytone style eq system like many, or most, jazz amps.

The idea of the very powerful class D amps is to avoid getting distortion on transient notes - good idea, I'd have thought. Plus, light and easy to carry.

If you're saying big efficient speakers give bigger and louder sound , sure. But point is , many of us don't want to lug big speaker cabs around, so if ( say) 200w+ 10" speaker = 20W + 4x12 cab, many will choose the first one.
Yes, 60w is more than enough with a good 10" speaker ( or let's say ..enough)

Or may I have missed your point...

[mr. beaumont]

Watts do not necessarily equal volume.

I also find the amount of people suggesting solid state amps for a "classic" 175 tone a bit disturbing

[christianm77]

Generally a fan of your stimulating and unusual posts Christian, but not sure what you're getting at here. Some facts wrong, e.g. lunchbox is actually 60W rms, they only quote the peak figure,, mambo is 180 or 400w rms depending, with a 10" which most players use. But 'class D a bit silly' ? Why?....a lot of power in a small box should be a good thing; acoustic image seem to do OK with their 500W amps, and have done for 10+ years.

I don't mean silly as in bad I mean silly as in Whoooooaaaaaa that's FAR MORE VOLUME than I need for a jazz gig. In fact, it was more than enough volume to play with a loud drummer and a seven piece soul band on around 1/3-1/2 volume.

OK, cool, ZT Lunchbox is 60 watts RMS, I was wondering if the 200W thing was a bit of an iffy figure... Put it through a cab though, and it's LOUD. Just as loud (I think) as I would expect from a 60 watt valve amp.

Anyway I was worried the ZT would blow the speaker.

So 20 Watts from something like an Orange Micro Terror ought to work. That was my point really.

There's no 'extra power' in the mambo bass, it's a polytone style eq system like many, or most, jazz amps.

Cool, I have no idea with Mambo amps, and I haven't owned one... Mambo amps sound quiet for their wattage, but loud for a small amp, no? So I imagine plugging one into bigger speakers would unleash THE KRAKEN.

The idea of the very powerful class D amps is to avoid getting distortion on transient notes - good idea, I'd have thought. Plus, light and easy to carry.

Which is why it's terribly frustrating that the guitar market has no interest in supplying the same cheap and light equipment they have for bass players. The reason is simple of course - most guitarists want a distorted sound and they are the most lucrative market.

Also unlike bass players, most guitarists don't have many gigs and 70's rock star fantasies, so they can schlep their overpowered valve amps to the one or two gigs a month/year they actually play and annoy their sound engineers. A lot of legit pros now do the Axe FX thing of course.

But - a lot of these small light amps have a SS power amp stage so you should be able to bypass it easy enough - esp if they have an effects loop.

I mean why not a ZT lunchbox head, for instance? Thing would be cheap, loud as fuck, clean, and probably weigh 1/2 kg.

I suppose there are things now like the DV Mark heads. I don't think their cleans are that great though? Probably rather have a flat response for jazz TBH.

If you're saying big efficient speakers give bigger and louder sound , sure. But point is , many of us don't want to lug big speaker cabs around, so if ( say) 200w+ 10" speaker = 20W + 4x12 cab, many will choose the first one.
Yes, 60w is more than enough with a good 10" speaker ( or let's say ..enough)

Well that's actually what I meant. What I want is a 0.5kg head I can put into the front pocket of my gig bag and a small light 10" cab I can carry in my hand. That would be lighter than my AER alpha, all told.

The ZT was a bit over powered for that 10" cab.

Or may I have missed your point...

Yes you have, but I daresay my point wasn't clear. You have in fact made it for me.

[christianm77]

I apologize but I had a similar question after reading this thread most of it is answered.

The only question I have is why is no one recommending a JC-22, or JC-40? I currently have a Roland Blues Cube, can anyone please offer thoughts on that?

I'm new to Jazz and my Blues Cube may not be ideal for my Epiphone ES 175

Thanks.

JC's are great, but quite heavy IIRC.

[Jonathan0996]

I understand that you haven't fallen in love with the Fender sound, but the Twin Reverbs and Deluxe Reverbs really do nail the "traditional" jazz sound. The tone stack is very different than the Hot Rod Deluxe so you might like them a lot better, but they're still heavy.

The Acoustic Image gear can sound really beautiful, but to my ears it isn't really the "traditional" jazz guitar sound, if that's what you're going after. Probably the best solid state amp I've tried for that sound was the Mambo. Haven't tried the Henriksen, but a lot of people like them. However, for that sound tube amps are hard to beat IMO.

[Longways to Go]

Watts do not necessarily equal volume.

I also find the amount of people suggesting solid state amps for a "classic" 175 tone a bit disturbing.

I think only because it was part of the premise of the OP's question.
Sure, the SS amp prerequisite is quite limiting. But there are some good ones out there, and I think that is the point of the thread.

Of course there are many stellar sounding tube amps out there too.

[joaopaz]

Looking back at my source clips, though I recorded them with the amp and pots identical, in the mastering I boosted the Epiphone a little. I re-did the clip with them mastered with the same amount of gain.

Still, the Epiphone sounds more "articulate." Both guitars are maple laminates with mahogany neck, both have Classic 57's, but the Epiphone has the metal ABR-1 bridge, the ES175 has the rosewood bridge. I think that accounts for the difference in tone. The bridge type has a dramatic effect on the quality of sound coming from two otherwise very similarly made guitars.

Thanks again, Lawson. It's great to hear both guitars together, playing the same things. I agree with your notes and both sound veeeery nice!

[joaopaz]

How many watts?

How many watts do you expect from a giggable amp? I notice the Orange Micro Terror is 20W, while Mambo amps boast 200W or 400W (I'm a bit confused). How much is enough, if we are talking SS amps. I always thought you can never have too much, muh self.

I

I'm no expert in amps and am also confused with the power specs... for instance:
I have a few Cube 60s (SS) - 60 watts - and the Hotrod Deluxe III (valves) - 40 watts. man.... the Fender could swallow the Cubes. Why is that? Or what I'm hearing isn't actually the "power" but what you guys call "headroom"?

[joaopaz]

Regarding your Hot Rod.....with a 175

turn treble and bass to 1, and mid on 4

replace the vi tube with a 5751, or at least plug into input 2 (lower gain).

Several threads here about getting best jazz tone out of this clan, powerful and reasonably priced tube amp.

spend the time to research them!

Thanks, I will do that. I was considering selling it, but recently (as I mentioned here somewhere) was nicely surprised with its tone with a Bare Knuckles Manhattan pu.
Just the same problem... carry that thing around. Whenever I play out I always end up taking one of the Cubes.. I look at the Fender and "nahhh ... I need my arms relaxed to play".

[joaopaz]

Watts do not necessarily equal volume.

I also find the amount of people suggesting solid state amps for a "classic" 175 tone a bit disturbing

Blame it on me, I asked for it and the guys have been kind enough to indulge my request!
But that's why it's written "classic".

And for a moment you got me wondering if I was nuts and the Polytone was a valve amp

[joaopaz]

I understand that you haven't fallen in love with the Fender sound, but the Twin Reverbs and Deluxe Reverbs really do nail the "traditional" jazz sound. The tone stack is very different than the Hot Rod Deluxe so you might like them a lot better, but they're still heavy.

The Acoustic Image gear can sound really beautiful, but to my ears it isn't really the "traditional" jazz guitar sound, if that's what you're going after. Probably the best solid state amp I've tried for that sound was the Mambo. Haven't tried the Henriksen, but a lot of people like them. However, for that sound tube amps are hard to beat IMO.

Short and sweet, Johnathan, thank you very much

[jorgemg1984]

I

I'm no expert in amps and am also confused with the power specs... for instance:
I have a few Cube 60s (SS) - 60 watts - and the Hotrod Deluxe III (valves) - 40 watts. man.... the Fender could swallow the Cubes. Why is that? Or what I'm hearing isn't actually the "power" but what you guys call "headroom"?

There are some reasons for that - one being Fender does a little trick with the HRD, 90% of the volume happens between 1 and 3, or something like that. So it gives you the illusion of being much louder than it actually is (helps impress people at music stores, I suppose). The cab is also much bigger than the Cube's cab and has better dispersion, that helps, for sure. And 60w and 40w are not that different. And there's the whole SS watts vs tube watts thing.

If you want some local help (I'm in Lisbon), shoot me a PM.

[coolvinny]

I understand that you haven't fallen in love with the Fender sound, but the Twin Reverbs and Deluxe Reverbs really do nail the "traditional" jazz sound. The tone stack is very different than the Hot Rod Deluxe so you might like them a lot better, but they're still heavy.

Even a Blues Jr. with treble and bass @ zero, mids at 7, 'fat' switch engaged, master and volume at 5, reverb on 0.2 sounds pretty damn good and can keep up with drums.

[jorgemg1984]

Even a Blues Jr. with treble and bass @ zero, mids at 7, 'fat' switch engaged, master and volume at 5, reverb on 0.2 sounds pretty damn good and can keep up with drums.

I've had the exact opposite experience - great amp for blues and rock, but sounds way too compressed at drum volumes - and not very jazzy, at any eq settings.

[ChrisDowning]

You may remember that video of Joe Pass turning up at a gig with his trusty ES175 in a gig bag over his shoulder. When asked about his approach to amps it seemed he like just plugging in the house PA and let the sound guy EQ it all. He didn't want to be sitting too close to a monitor next to him - so no back-line at all.

That suggests (as some of my acoustic player friends have said) that a simple PA with some sort of preamp / DI box is a runner. Two friends told me that if they were buying a set up now, they would skip around the quality AER and ACUS amps they originally bought and just go into the PA.

Anyone had similar experiences using something like a Sans Amp from Tech 21 into a PA? It looks like its a flexible sett up - say one Mackie 350 and a Sans Amp or two 350s up on stands for bigger venues. If you are using a traditional amp that gets mic'd up and then relayed through the PA isn't that the same?

I think what happened to the two guys who wanted to give up the amps is they found themselves schlepping PAs around as well as the amp and wanted the set up to be easy. If I was still doing solo gigs I'd go the PA route. We used to take two fender amps, a mixer, and a pair of Mackies - I think now we'd go to a decent front end EQ box and into the mixer/PA.

[christianm77]

You may remember that video of Joe Pass turning up at a gig with his trusty ES175 in a gig bag over his shoulder. When asked about his approach to amps it seemed he like just plugging in the house PA and let the sound guy EQ it all. He didn't want to be sitting too close to a monitor next to him - so no back-line at all.

That suggests (as some of my acoustic player friends have said) that a simple PA with some sort of preamp / DI box is a runner. Two friends told me that if they were buying a set up now, they would skip around the quality AER and ACUS amps they originally bought and just go into the PA.

Anyone had similar experiences using something like a Sans Amp from Tech 21 into a PA? It looks like its a flexible sett up - say one Mackie 350 and a Sans Amp or two 350s up on stands for bigger venues. If you are using a traditional amp that gets mic'd up and then relayed through the PA isn't that the same?

I think what happened to the two guys who wanted to give up the amps is they found themselves schlepping PAs around as well as the amp and wanted the set up to be easy. If I was still doing solo gigs I'd go the PA route. We used to take two fender amps, a mixer, and a pair of Mackies - I think now we'd go to a decent front end EQ box and into the mixer/PA.

Sounds like a solid concept.

[Cunamara]

Anyone had similar experiences using something like a Sans Amp from Tech 21 into a PA? It looks like its a flexible sett up - say one Mackie 350 and a Sans Amp or two 350s up on stands for bigger venues. If you are using a traditional amp that gets mic'd up and then relayed through the PA isn't that the same?

Well, I can say from experience it doesn't sound the same as a guitar amp, although it can sound very good. I have used a SansAmp ParaDriver DI into an Alto TS110a, which is the same idea except with a PA you'd go to the mixer and then the cab(s) whereas I am going straight to a powered cab. I have also used a Zoom MS100bt as the DI box into the Alto; I found that more successful as the Zoom has amp sims, reverb, etc., that can be chained together inside one stomp box. It sounds more like a guitar amp. However, guitar amps in part sound like guitar amps because of the speakers they use- PA speakers aren't voiced like that.

One issue with my setup is that you have to send a lot of signal to the speaker- the SansAmp has line level out (and XLR as an option) and the Zoom likewise has much hotter output than most stompbox type devices. So you need something to match the guitar's impedance on the input side and to provide enough signal to the PA on the output side (which is what a guitar DI does, of course).

I think that the PA route typically sounds better for acoustic instruments IME because of the way PA speakers are voiced. However, one rock guitarist I know uses a Zoom or some other large pedalboard with lots of built-in effects and runs straight to the PA; he puts a shell of an amp on stage behind him that doesn't even have anything inside it, just for looks. He sounds great.

[Stringswinger]

I understand that you haven't fallen in love with the Fender sound, but the Twin Reverbs and Deluxe Reverbs really do nail the "traditional" jazz sound. The tone stack is very different than the Hot Rod Deluxe so you might like them a lot better, but they're still heavy.

The Acoustic Image gear can sound really beautiful, but to my ears it isn't really the "traditional" jazz guitar sound, if that's what you're going after. Probably the best solid state amp I've tried for that sound was the Mambo. Haven't tried the Henriksen, but a lot of people like them. However, for that sound tube amps are hard to beat IMO.

No doubt that the traditional jazz sounds that we hear in the great recordings of the 50's through the 80's were mostly made with Fender Tube amps or Polytone SS Amps. The choices of today, Acoustic Image, Henriksen, AER, Mambo and a few others make wonderful, but different sounding amps.

Here is the thing. The New Fender amps, including the reissue amps with their circuit boards and Italian made speakers do not sound like the traditional Fender amps. And Polytone is gone (and Polytone speakers are no longer being made).

So the choice is this go with one of the new SS choices, go with a new Fender or get a vintage Fender or vintage Polytone.

[joaopaz]

There are some reasons for that - one being Fender does a little trick with the HRD, 90% of the volume happens between 1 and 3, or something like that. So it gives you the illusion of being much louder than it actually is (helps impress people at music stores, I suppose). The cab is also much bigger than the Cube's cab and has better dispersion, that helps, for sure. And 60w and 40w are not that different. And there's the whole SS watts vs tube watts thing.

If you want some local help (I'm in Lisbon), shoot me a PM.

Olá Jorge!

That's exactly what happened to me (and a few friends) when I unboxed the Hotrod.... I turned it on and, wow, it would almost bring the house down just with the volume at 2! So that was why...!
Yesterday I plugged in and turned down the volume on the guitar to around 7 and noticed that after 3 it's nothing as dramatic as until there... just as you mentioned.
Great post, thanks!

I'm in Porto, but going to Lisbon a lot (hope to move in there asap!) and so I'll keep your contact for sure, thanks again!

[joaopaz]

No doubt that the traditional jazz sounds that we hear in the great recordings of the 50's through the 80's were mostly made with Fender Tube amps or Polytone SS Amps. The choices of today, Acoustic Image, Henriksen, AER, Mambo and a few others make wonderful, but different sounding amps.

Here is the thing. The New Fender amps, including the reissue amps with their circuit boards and Italian made speakers do not sound like the traditional Fender amps. And Polytone is gone (and Polytone speakers are no longer being made).

So the choice is this go with one of the new SS choices, go with a new Fender or get a vintage Fender or vintage Polytone.

Thanks, I understand what you're saying.

[jorgemg1984]

Olá Jorge!

That's exactly what happened to me (and a few friends) when I unboxed the Hotrod.... I turned it on and, wow, it would almost bring the house down just with the volume at 2! So that was why...!
Yesterday I plugged in and turned down the volume on the guitar to around 7 and noticed that after 3 it's nothing as dramatic as until there... just as you mentioned.
Great post, thanks!

I'm in Porto, but going to Lisbon a lot (hope to move in there asap!) and so I'll keep your contact for sure, thanks again!

Olá, João!

Glad I've helped. These days I run a digital rig but I've had quite a few amps so far, so I might able to help you - we'll keep in touch, say something when you come down here!

[joaopaz]

And while we're at it, how much do you guys think a 80s Polytone Mini Brute I in good condition would be worth?