Jazz-Archtop vs Solid Body

[doctrane]

I've been posting around.
Trying to get as much info as possible

The Heritage H-575 instrument has come up as being a strong consideration
as an es-175 swap or improvement.

I've considered

Hamer Artist Custom??
Hofner Jazzica
Eastman
PRS??

Since I currently play
a Les Paul studio-premium-plus, but I believe
much of my sound comes from my touch and contact
relationship with the instrument, it alway seems I can
coax my 'VOICE' out of any box or slab of wood.

But, I sit down with let's say a PRS 22/24 custom and wow, punch and the the neck feels so layed out, like a laboratory, something about it.

But when I listen to Wes, or even my jazz instruction books
cd (Garrison Fewell or Andrew Green, etc.) - I hear a
bell, or a sense of sound that is I don't know, more organic,
more crytaline, more shaped, something??

Anyway I'm trying to figure whether I should go with a roll of the dice
or perhaps have the opportunity to play some archtops and then see if they're right for me at this junction?

More particularly being focused on
the Heritage H-575

I welcome anyones comments with regards to
Jazz-Archtop vs Solid Body

[JohnW400]

This has been brought up many, many times. You should search the forum for these posts.

An archtop sounds different from a solidbody. It has a 'woodier' sound. This is not to say that you can't approximate the sound by playing with your amp/guitar controls, but they really aren't the same

You could play jazz on either and you could play rock on an archtop (just ask Steve Howe) so the issue becomes what do you hear? If you hear yourself on a H-575 or similar, then that's what you should play. If you hear yourself on a PRS, then that's what you should play.

Since you already have an LP, perhaps you should lean towards the archtops.

[doctrane]

This has been brought up many, many times. You should search the forum for these posts.

An archtop sounds different from a solidbody. It has a 'woodier' sound. This is not to say that you can't approximate the sound by playing with your amp/guitar controls, but they really aren't the same

You could play jazz on either and you could play rock on an archtop (just ask Steve Howe) so the issue becomes what do you hear? If you hear yourself on a H-575 or similar, then that's what you should play. If you hear yourself on a PRS, then that's what you should play.

Since you already have an LP, perhaps you should lean towards the archtops.

I'm sure it has been brought up a zillion times
(eg. What is Jazz?)
but I wanted to take a fast crack at it

and

with regards to hearing myself on an instrument, it would appear that like food, one should have oh, about 10 different guitars, and at a moment
decide which one he(she) wants to play. (costly investment, i'm worth it, just don't have the capital).

In the end, the one(s) you wind up playing the most, are your choices.
Sell the rest

A costly experiment

All this I know is probably an excuse to drive somewhere (some store),
to try yet another guitar
I do appreciate your input

[derek]

As usual, I agree with John. In addition to Steve Howe, you have Ted Nugent, like a crazy old uncle you never had, playing rock on Byrdlands. Any guitar can get the job done. You hear, "it ain't about the gear, it is about the player" sorts of statements from pros, but for guys who have been around a while, we seem to be looking for a certain type of sound.

The only way I know how to do this a) play a ton of guitars and b) find out what the guys who's sound you like played. Unlike the old days when you felt lucky because your dad bought you a Stella, there are lots of really good choices, maybe too many.

I have bought and sold probably a dozen and a half nice archtops over the past 4-5 years in my search. I say play a bunch. Happy hunting.

[doctrane]

As usual, I agree with John. In addition to Steve Howe, you have Ted Nugent, like a crazy old uncle you never had, playing rock on Byrdlands. Any guitar can get the job done. You hear, "it ain't about the gear, it is about the player" sorts of statements from pros, but for guys who have been around a while, we seem to be looking for a certain type of sound.

The only way I know how to do this a) play a ton of guitars and b) find out what the guys who's sound you like played. Unlike the old days when you felt lucky because your dad bought you a Stella, there are lots of really good choices, maybe too many.

I have bought and sold probably a dozen and a half nice archtops over the past 4-5 years in my search. I say play a bunch. Happy hunting.

I think part of my 'issue' on all of this and I hope that I can resolve it one day, is
my lack of capital to just spend what I want on what I want so
that I can enjoy the freedom to hunt

and purchase!!!

at times I am forlorn

playing and practicing is one the hopeful things that I do that puts
a on my face


Only god knows

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Capital: have you tried the old cookie jar approach? Start physically setting aside money for your goal. I do that, because I realize I spend money here and there on stuff I can do without. Fancy Starbucks coffee on the way to work? Into the cookie jar! Make yourself a coffee when you get there. Leftovers for lunch? $10 into the jar! (You may not eat as much for lunch as I do...) A library book instead of a novel from the bookstore, etc..

[JohnW400]

If you want an archtop in the budget range then as Derek says, lots of choices.

Ibanez
Peerless
D'Angelico (the new ones)
Eastman (get's a plus 1 for bang for the buck)

What's your price range?

[doctrane]

Capital: have you tried the old cookie jar approach? Start physically setting aside money for your goal. I do that, because I realize I spend money here and there on stuff I can do without. Fancy Starbucks coffee on the way to work? Into the cookie jar! Make yourself a coffee when you get there. Leftovers for lunch? $10 into the jar! (You may not eat as much for lunch as I do...) A library book instead of a novel from the bookstore, etc..

appreciate the saving method tip...
i'm also waiting for the big idea to appear on the lid of a garbage pale(truck) (diz i think said he wrote night in tunisia on the lid of a garbage pale) - worked for diz, maybe it'll work for me

dayve
ii-v-i or not

[doctrane]

If you want an archtop in the budget range then as Derek says, lots of choices.

Ibanez
Peerless
D'Angelico (the new ones)
Eastman (get's a plus 1 for bang for the buck)

What's your price range?

Just spoke to some guitar salesman at local
guitar store.
mentioned heritage. told me >> beautiful guitars, that's what
gibson was. i see that sadowsky is in brooklyn... maybe i'll check them out
look at the jim hall model?? a bit pricey for me...

i'm looking to spend between 1 & 2 k / +-

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

In that range you may also want to check out Hofner. For example the Jazzica:


Edit: durn! I see you mention it in the original post! If you're looking for something more flexible -- not a 3"+ deep jazz box, they also make semi-acoustic (335-ish) models:

[JohnW400]

I don't know where you're from but here's a site with lots of Eastmans and Peerless that should be in your range. Check it out if only to give you and idea.

Guitars N Jazz Featuring Palen Archtops


FYI, all those salespeople say Heritage is what Gibson was. That's not saying much.

[doctrane]

In that range you may also want to check out Hofner. For example the Jazzica:


Edit: durn! I see you mention it in the original post! If you're looking for something more flexible -- not a 3"+ deep jazz box, they also make semi-acoustic (335-ish) models:

I think I lean towards the cutaway vs 2 big fins (335) >>
but hey I'm examining this again so I'll be open

Yes I had my eye on that one too?
compared to the H-575, any thoughts?

[doctrane]

I don't know where you're from but here's a site with lots of Eastmans and Peerless that should be in your range. Check it out if only to give you and idea.

Guitars N Jazz Featuring Palen Archtops


FYI, all those salespeople say Heritage is what Gibson was. That's not saying much.

Wow - checked out Guitars N Jazz >> that's some selection that
would certainly educate with regards to sound and feel
of different instruments.
How far from LI-NY do you think? - if your from NJ

[JohnW400]

Wow - checked out Guitars N Jazz >> that's some selection that
would certainly educate with regards to sound and feel
of different instruments.
How far from LI-NY do you think? - if your from NJ

What part of LI? LI is BIG.

It's 30 minutes from me via the Garden State Parkway. I'm 20 minutes from the GWB. It's probably even closer to you if you come through Staten Island.

So I would say it's probably less than an hour from any NJ entry. Add that to what it takes you to get to The GWB or Goethals Bridge. Forget the tunnels with the route through SI being the quickest

[doctrane]

What part of LI? LI is BIG.

It's 30 minutes from me via the Garden State Parkway. I'm 20 minutes from the GWB. It's probably even closer to you if you come through Staten Island.

So I would say it's probably less than an hour from any NJ entry. Add that to what it takes you to get to The GWB or Goethals Bridge. Forget the tunnels with the route through SI being the quickest

Nassau County

so I'm about 30 minutes or so from GWB + 20 + 30
so not bad >> 1.25 >> 1.5 hrs or so (unless the cross bronx eats me up) but looking at their select of archtops, well i have lots of trying out to do.

ok so let's say i try some of these out...
and persuing the Heritage H-575 option, I'd assume that
the H-575 would compare nicely or supremely to what's being offered at that store, or could I say, you pay for what you get, more or less

spend 500 you get 500, spend 1000 you get 1000, spend 2 you get 2 spend 4 you get for spend 7 you get 7 and so on
minus the hype factor (Gibson - vintage collection), and perhaps

some models which ARE reasonably prices but play exceptionally well and can be compared like
a Heritage H-575 or a ??? or ???

Comments welcomed

PS please excuse my, perhaps over analyzation of this whole process.
It's kind of my way of having my hand held a bit through unchartered waters, a little bit of me, and to be perfectly honest,
I just broke my f_gin hip, am on the mend, will be 100%, but this process of healing, and wondering if the dear lord will provide some light for me and my so called (dead-end carear)(i'm a computer programmer, but the waters are very competitive and i'm just plain tired of being someone elses
-dog-)

sigh

thanks for letting me >> express my wows and
joys (practicing, playing the geetar and of course the many years of listening to music, in the later years to the beauty(yes ugly beauty too) and soul fullfilling splendor of jazz

again
Tx

ii-v-i or not
dayve

[JohnW400]

An H 575 is a good guitar. So is an ES -175. So let's look at this from a design point of view so that you can compare apples to apples.

Both the 575 and 175 are 16" laminate guitars with 2 humbucking pups routed into the top. They have their own sound. So look at an Eastman/Peerless with the same attributes if that's the sound you like. Cutaway is really an esthetic thing.

Most of the guitars you will be looking at will be 16-17" at lower bout, laminate versus solid wood. Solid wood is more money.

The next issue is number of pickups and are they mounted or routed. Routing the top deadens the acoustic sound but also reduces feedback at higher volume. If you want a real acoustic type sound go with 1 'neck' mounted pup or with one p/up. If your leanings are more towards electric go with 2 routed p/up's.

In closing, Guild made some nice archtops as well so if you come across a used MAnhatten or X 500 made in Rhode Island look at those as well.

[derek]

An H 575 is a good guitar. So is an ES -175. So let's look at this from a design point of view so that you can compare apples to apples.

Both the 575 and 175 are 16" laminate guitars with 2 humbucking pups routed into the top. They have their own sound. So look at an Eastman/Peerless with the same attributes if that's the sound you like. Cutaway is really an esthetic thing.

Most of the guitars you will be looking at will be 16-17" at lower bout, laminate versus solid wood. Solid wood is more money.

The next issue is number of pickups and are they mounted or routed. Routing the top deadens the acoustic sound but also reduces feedback at higher volume. If you want a real acoustic type sound go with 1 'neck' mounted pup or with one p/up. If your leanings are more towards electric go with 2 routed p/up's.

In closing, Guild made some nice archtops as well so if you come across a used MAnhatten or X 500 made in Rhode Island look at those as well.

The Heritage 575 is a solid carved wood guitar, not a laminate. The discontinued 550 was a laminate. You can still find these on ebay from time to time.

I agree that the Guild Manhattan, X-500 (16") and X-700 (17") are wonderful values. In addition to Guitars n Jazz, here are some other great places to shop in person or online.

www.archtop.com
www.elderly.com
www.gruhn.com
www.jhalemusic.com
www.mandoweb.com
www.12thfret.com


I'll tell you how I financed my first pricey archtop purchase. I bought and flipped guitars and related gear on ebay for a few months until I had made enough to buy it. I have done this off and on thru the years. It is amazing what you can get things for if you have cash in hand. Good luck and happy hunting.

[JohnW400]

Oh, the 575 is like an L4 then, or is the L-4 carved top only, laminate back and sides?

[doctrane]

The Heritage 575 is a solid carved wood guitar, not a laminate. The discontinued 550 was a laminate. You can still find these on ebay from time to time.

I agree that the Guild Manhattan, X-500 (16") and X-700 (17") are wonderful values.

I currently handle an acoustic, dread cutaway (slightly less bulky) and then started with my LesPaul. Of course neck is very reduced on the LP, as I manage to do fine on my dread. But then adapting to the LP renders my hand more compressed. Bouncing back and forth to these instruments causes me anx, but I've reconciled to just pickup whatever one I desire and just practice on it until it feels right and then some. If I'm iniclined to switch then I do, readapt and then stay with whatever it is.

For my ear and tone I think, the notorious (I) - how many (I's) would say this, but I think are better than average, no, I'd say very good, my point being that now I'm taking it all more intensely, more seriously, taking lessons, and pulling out the jazz books. I've always had a good, analytical mind that is always curious to the workings and theories of things, in this case music, and I think I've finally arrived at some rather complete, perhaps intuitive understanding of 'The Concepts' (vertical, horizontal, tritone, ii-v-i, psychoacoustics, scales & modes, voice leading (ah if i could only do it on the cuff, well), the guide tone, the atonalism, call and response, whatever whatever.

In taking my lessons of course my weak pts

song, Songs, SONGS >> learning many many songs to get all the examples of music as applied, plus the expessive cohesiveness that songs allow, etc. AND
reading music.

I can read on the viola (primary-original instrument), but guitar is another story.

I'm forcing myself, disciplining myself, at times, to name the notes, and place them on the instrument. All of this would be great of course to then read transcribed solos of bird, etc. and of course make the most use out of the many jazz books, and zillions of exercise books out there the fascilitate serious learning.

put this all together with the theory of (substitution, reharmonization, voice leading, how music and sound sits as a matrix in a time field of perception, blah blah blah....why am i telling you all this....

because
it's my quintessential anguish to push through to being able to do something in my life, finally well, very well...

thinking that to OWN A BEAUTIFUL AND definitive quality instrument WILL provide me with that vehicle to truely continue on my journey.

I don't have endless amts of dough. Hey I'm not alone. It's a big world, and the grass is always greener, as they say.

I purchased a Breedlove d25-dread, oh about 1.5 years ago. It was a good buy. It's a good instrument. Cost me oh about $1600. Now, for an acoustic that's ya know...Well if you've played 2500, 3000, 4000, 7000 well not in all cases, but in many...Woe, what a vibration, what a connection, what enjoyment, aesthetically to the instrument.
As a violist, I certainly know about the difference between a cigar box and a good instrument, very good instrument, and amazing instrument.

I also know, as have experienced and believe to be so, that it's oh so much in the touch, the fingers, the player.

So of course when it comes time for me, like now, to be thnking of the magical or next instrument, whether I'm deluding myself into another GAS experience (although GAS probably is only an expression if you truely have aquired oh probably > 10 guitars, whatever the threshold is

SO I'M LOOKING FOR THE PERFECT INSTRUMENT FOR MY PRICE RANGE, HOPING THAT I'LL FIND IT, BUY IT, AND THEN PRACTICE ON IT, EXPRESS MY MIND HEART AND SOUL >> for the purpose of, for the purpose of, I have know idea. Maybe and I just got this... the end of Stablemates (Miles-Trane/golson song) always hit me as an ocean, a lake, an animal calling in the wild...just a beautiful beautiful organic expresson...and yes it's a mere >> ii-v-i (laura head)-ending, expressed perfectly...

something so simple, but for whatever the reason says so much.

and when i play those simple ii-v-i cords / it's like I'm on that wave, in that state. It's a great place to be. It's why I play. It's why I listen, well I listen also to hear and get all that extra muscal relationship exploration and stuff and power (65-Coltrane, etc.) - but just the same, i'm just trying to push through into something good, something fun, something that's good for me, and that would be

gettin a great instrument(s), that I'll enjoy, play and will let me connect onto the expressive qualities and capacities that the instrument will allow me to coax out of it, as I gain more and more fascility and then chuck it all as I let go and just play and tell my story

dayve

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

A zen garden... just rocks
and the old gardener knows to leave room
for the spaces in between.

[Jazzarian]

Oh, the 575 is like an L4 then, or is the L-4 carved top only, laminate back and sides?

Heritage also made a "Sweet 16" model with a carved maple top that looked nearly identical to an ES175. Nice guitar but poor resale value. Great deal as a used guitar.

I can't remember when I last played my ES175. The Super 5 just displaced it completely. I also tend to like my GB10 better than the 175.

[doctrane]

Heritage also made a "Sweet 16" model with a carved maple top that looked nearly identical to an ES175. Nice guitar but poor resale value. Great deal as a used guitar.

I can't remember when I last played my ES175. The Super 5 just displaced it completely. I also tend to like my GB10 better than the 175.

Yes?
The
Ibanez GB10 George Benson Hollowbody Electric

you like?

New?
Why do you prefer it more?
Comments?

[Jazzarian]

Yes?
The
Ibanez GB10 George Benson Hollowbody Electric

you like?

New?
Why do you prefer it more?
Comments?

It's my everyday archtop. I bought it used for $800 back around '92. I believe it's from 1981 and blonde. I had to buy a new case for it though.

I have 12 guage flatwound strings on it (all 3 of my archtops!) and it feels like a Les Paul with 009s. Benson and Ibanez came up with a nice design that stood the test of time.

For critical recording, I use my Gibson Super V CES. Can't be beat for authentic Wes tone.

[derek]

Oh, the 575 is like an L4 then, or is the L-4 carved top only, laminate back and sides?

The L4 has a solid top, lam back and sides. I am trying to think if Gibby ever had a all solid wood 16", but am drawing a blank. Can't think of one.

[skei]

I have an Ibanez artcore, 100 or 150 or something, can't remember what, and it's very nice in tone and playability. Now I'm saving up to get a les paul copu thing, found Guitarshop.se (Powered by CubeCart) which have kits for putting together, some 200 € for a pre painted les paul kit. I want to get a Wakenius sound, I can't get that out of the ibanez, well, rather close to, but still a tad too ringing.
Peace
Skei (the time for coffee, perchance? one)