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Lately I've been reflecting on how my efforts to achieve certain goals with new equipment feels more and more like gambling. I seem to blow a lot of money every year trying to find "unicorn" gear -- that elusive guitar or amp that will tick all of my boxes with no compromises (weight, neck size, tone) and be relatively affordable.
For example, I'm starting a group with my wife on upright bass. I want to do something that encompasses acoustic/gypsy jazz swing, blues, a little rockabilly and Americana. I picked up a Godin 5th Ave acoustic cheap and decided that was the sound I was looking for, but I wanted a cutaway so I could reach the upper frets and a floating pickup for plugging in at gigs. I also want something with a solid carved top.
I started looking at vintage archtops but those are expensive, so I came to the conclusion that maybe I was being silly and a good flat top acoustic is really all I need so I rolled the dice on a new $2,000 Taylor. Two weeks later I concluded it just wasn't the right guitar for me. So I took it back, got an "Eastman" that turned out to be a fake (or at least a frankenstein project) took that back, yada yada. I got most of my money back out of that deal, but not all of it. I gambled and lost.
Then I went back to looking at vintage archtops (what I really wanted) and found a good deal on a 1958 Gibson L-4C, that had been refinished so I got it below market, but I had to roll the dice again because I've never actually played one of these and this was a private seller Reverb deal. So I have that guitar now and I love the way it sounds, but there are some issues with playability (fatter neck, higher action than I'm used to). I'm hoping it just needs a professional setup and I'm also trying to "man up" and adjust to the fact that this guitar simply takes more physical effort than I'm used to. Anyway, I'm committed to making this guitar work for me, but I'm just wondering if anybody else feels like their misadventures with equipment approach a kind of gambling addiction?
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02-21-2017 05:07 PM
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My only thought on this is that I would ban the words "man up" when it comes to playing a guitar. My one-and-only absolute rule about guitars is that they MUST meet my needs in terms of playability (or must at least be able to be made to meet my needs by a decent technician without making a huge investment). My playing style has been dialled in over many decades and I'm not in the least interested in a guitar that forces me to work harder just to make music. That, by definition, would mean that i have the wrong guitar.
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Buying stuff online is a crapshoot, and you may as well just face that. The action on the Gibson should be easy enough to adjust. You shouldn't need a professional to do the setup if you have average mechanical skills and aptitude. There are many, many threads here that discuss how to do one, plus the magical interwebtubez have myriads of tutorials, of various levels of quality, which any search engine will find for you. In short, assuming the frets are level, you first adjust the truss rod to get a nearly straight neck, with whatever relief you prefer (and this can be changed if you find it's not what you really like), then adjust the bridge to get the action you want. If there are buzzing strings at the lower frets, you need to adjust the nut. If strings buzz at the higher frets, raise the bridge. Somewhere there should be a happy medium. If you can't get decent action without buzzing, then you may need a fret dress, which isn't something the typical player can do on his own without experience and the proper tools. As for the fatter neck, there isn't anything to be done with that. That's one of the disadvantages of buying online. Always play a guitar before buying it if possible, and if it's not possible you have to take what you get.
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Sorry to hear of your travails. That 1958 L-4C requires a good set-up by a good tech. Makes heck of a world of difference. The chunky Gibson neck is a feature of that period. Won't suggest shaving it down as it loses value but if that is what it takes...It is your call and we are talking about 1000ths of an inch. Edit: Your L-4C is refinished already anyway; taking the neck down isn't going to hurt its value much at all. It is depreciated as it is. Do it, if that is what it takes. You require a tech who has a sensitive hand. Classic smooth C with no shoulders. 0.865" under the first fret. 0.995" under the 10th. Good to go.
Don't be put off. The L-4C is a good jazzbox. With a good set-up and the right strings, it can be made to sound very good.
With vintage gear, you always gotta budget for this. New frets, fretboard re-levelling, new nut, new bridge, etc. Whatever it takes. But price is soon forgotten when you make music with it.
We have all been there with vintage gear. All require a little work to make playable. Don't know where you are but many here can recommend good techs all across the USA.
Good luck.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-21-2017 at 06:04 PM.
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maybe you could consider being a little more conservative with your purchases. Why buy a 2000$ guitar if you re not even sure what kind of guitar you are looking for? Why buy online, especially older instruments, if you re not sure about the specifics you want on a guitar (neck, frets, radius etc) or the type of problems an instrument like that might have?
Maybe invest on more modest instruments so you can learn more on what you enjoy and need musically. Try to play before buying if possible. For me this journey took many years and its a process that never ends, you just learn what you like and what you can work with. I don't believe a know a single musician that hasn't been let down by a gear purchase at some point
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Thanks everybody, I actually have a terrific luthier I work with, he's shown me repairs he's done on broken headstocks and other major repairs. He also did the neck refret/reset on my '66 Guild Starfire so I trust him. Be a shame to shave the neck just because the refin is so pretty, but of course, I'm the only one who sees the back of the neck so I'll talk to him about it. I think the frets may need to be leveled, though it looks like there's plenty of life in them.
Unfortunately my example derailed the thread a little. My point was how much I feel like a gambler every time I buy a piece of gear. It's nerve wracking for me and stressful for my wife, who is pretty much the opposite of me, she never spends money on anything.
I feel like I could go to Gamblers Anonymous with my story because I'm constantly looking to "score" with about the same odds of success I would have if I went to a casino. Does anybody relate?
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Theft victim twice...ouch! Do you trust your mailman/deliveryman? How do people know you have this stuff in your place?
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My 1952 L-4 is one of my easiest playing and most inspiring guitars I own. It has .012 round wound Martin Monels. Have your guitar set up and enjoy as you may have scored big time in the fun department.
Thanks john
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Regarding some of the victim status aspects, selling can also be pain. Imagine being on the seller end of the sort of serial rejector who used to recount his innumerable capricious returns here?
Regarding the actual guitars:
100% agreed with Jim that you need to play the guitar, not the other way around. And this starts with the need for everything to be set up exactly as you need, within the realm or Newtonian physics.
I am absolutely amazed how well some players do considering the [basket of] deplorable set up of a huge number of guitars.
I have bought many guitars online with the expectation that absolutely everything about the setup would be a disaster.
In my opinion, rather than expecting to "score", it would be often best to consder the cost (or time) of a complete cleaning, fret dress, NUT, and general setup in addition to the purchase price.
My opinion of course.
Chris
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I hear ya, Tony. Buying stuff is exciting - a bit of a rush. You see something in a store that might fill a need (real or imaginary) and the next thing you know, it's all yours, and reality sets in. Now what? I had to let my subscriptions to Guitar Player and Vintage Guitar lapse because they were just fanning the flames, so to speak. I am a guitar junkie, straight up. You'll find plenty of company here on the forum. You are fortunate in realizing there is a process at work, and can compensate. Remember we are here to help.
Or enable.
Your choice.
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I understand the reluctance to buy guitars online. However, if I have demo'd something similar and am dealing with someone reputable, I am OK with it. I use my experience and read between the lines before deciding. Also, depending on what I want, if I go with a manufacturer's best models, I feel safer. I just recently scored a Godin Jazz, but I had only played Kingpins previously. For over $1k off the MSRP I was willing to take the chance through Godin via Amazon. Good deal.
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sounds to me like you've been playing too much on the short game,
and should concentrate more about the long game.
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I have never bought a guitar, not one, that had a decent setup as I received it. That includes both new and used instruments. The only instruments I've ever had that were well set up to start with were the ones I built myself. I expect to have to do a setup on anything I buy, because it's just a fact of life. Maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised someday, but in the meantime I'm not disappointed because I expect the worst and usually get it. I'm pretty careful about what I buy online, and what I pay for it, and so far haven't really had any major problems with the few guitars I've bought. Setup work is expected, as I said, and beyond that I feel I've received more than my money's worth for online purchases, both instruments and gear. But you have to know a little bit about what you're doing and be selective.
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Thanks for all the great replies. I'm particularly interested in the comment about playing the long game vs the short game. I'm not sure I understand what you mean (or how I would do that exactly?) but it sounds accurate.
I'm arranging to get the guitar set up, I'm sure that will make a big difference. I lowered the bridge a little tonight to get a more comfortable action, but of course now I have fret buzz. I also notice that my hand gets fatigued playing that fat neck too long. I doubt I could make it through a 2 hour gig with it as it is. So I'm going to explore the possibility of having the neck shaved a little in the shoulders.
Thanks again for all your good thoughts and suggestions.
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Before you get the neck reduced, Tony, it may help to go out to play a few necks to know what works for you and then get your tech to match that. I like Collings guitar neck profiles. So, I might just check out a few Collings. If you go to Collings' website you will find dimensions and a cross-sectional profile which could prove useful. Generally, most folk like 0.865" under the 1st fret, 0.995" under the 9th or 10th fret, smooth C with little to no shoulders, if you thumbover, smooth D, if you don't.
I'd opt for an satin oiled neck refinish for playability than nitrocellulose.
Good thing about refinished guitars is that they are depreciated already so you can do anything you want to it. Better to start out with a neck too chunky than one too thin. I'd look for a patient tech with a light touch who take it down a little at a time with sandpaper. Spokeshaves remove too much too soon.
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My rule of thumb is play before you pay. If my left hand don't get along with the neck, the purchase is a nonstarter. If the tone isn't happening,and if I can fix it with twiddling or minor modding, I might still pull the trigger. But I don't buy a car without a test-drive, I don't settle down with a gal without having some time in the relationship first, and I won't buy a guitar if I can't lay my mitts on it, generally.
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Guitarists seem to suffer this addiction way more than other musicians. But this could also be applied to people who have other Hobbies, Fishing, Golf, Hot Rods,etc. Especially now that we live in a time where value is placed on aquisitions, rather than one's actual talent.
If we go back to the 1970's and before, most proffesional guitarists only owned the guitars they used to make a living with.
But in fairness it sure is fun to try so many great guitars,etc...
Caveat: I'm a Gear Addict,LOL!
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Are we sure it isn't that way still?
Originally Posted by jads57
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There's no such thing as perfection. If you're thinking about it in terms of ticking off boxes, you'll never get there because there's always going to be some niche that isn't perfectly filled by what you have. If you want to buy guitars because you like buying guitars, cool [or if it's a compulsion that causes you some distress, maybe not so cool, but there's drugs for that :-)]. You can play almost any kind of electric-guitar music on almost any electric guitar. Deciding that there are a whole lot fewer boxes that need to be checked and that the guitar in hand is unicorn-ish enough for your actual musical purposes is the key finding a unicorn. I'm not preaching that one SHOULD do that, but I think it might be useful to recognize that seeking/buying/selling/trading guitars is mainly a pursuit unto itself more than it is a pursuit of the ideal tool for one's musical tasks. Originally Posted by tonyp145
John
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I suggest that you also evaluate the scale length prior to shaving the neck down. In my experience cramping can have more to do with short scale lengths than neck profiles. Your guitar (not the neck specifically) may not be right for you. Originally Posted by tonyp145
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I have 3 other guitars that I love to play -- a mid-60s Guild Starfire, a '97 Ibanez Pat Metheny and Godin 5th Ave. What they all have in common is nut widths of 1 11/16" and scale lengths between 24.75" and 25". The Gibson also falls in that range, that's why I thought it would work for me. But it's hard to get measurements of neck thickness and shape and that's where I've stumbled here. I would have liked to try before I bought, but that isn't typically an option buying from a private seller on Reverb.
I've played and owned many guitars over the years, but mostly solidbody electric guitars. I'm relatively new to the hollowbody game and these acoustic archtops are really quite rare and expensive -- especially the ones with cutaways. I guess I'm really paying for an education right now.
Years ago when I got my Guild, it was already beat to hell and needed a reset and a refret so I had my guy sand the neck down, stain it with a red stain that works well with the finish (makes it not very noticeable) and treat it with tung oil. I love the feel of that neck, it's slim and slinky. I'm going to take that guitar with me when I take the Gibby in. I know he won't be able to match the profile -- that would require removing too much wood to be safe -- but I think it will provide some guidance.
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As the old saying goes, "Join the club!" Originally Posted by tonyp145
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"shaved a little" also means refinished. Both of these reduce the value of the guitar and are irreversible. I'd sell it and get as much of my money out as I could before I'd consider that. Originally Posted by tonyp145
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It's already been refinished, you may have missed that. The irreversible has already been done. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
Stumbling fingers still need love ...
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I just talked to my guy, I'm going to take it to him tomorrow. I'll report back what he says.
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