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No I didn't miss that but when people talk about shaving a bit off the neck they almost always leave out the part about refinishing the neck. That refine has to match the existing finish whether it's original or not. It's effort and expense and almost always devalues the guitar further.
Originally Posted by R Neil
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02-22-2017 05:55 PM
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You should be buying because you love the way it feels and plays and sounds and looks. Not as an investment. Buy because it's like getting a dog or cat - you're not gonna flip it first time your a little bored. You're going for a commitment and long standing relationship with it. Like a really good pair of jeans, it just is you and fits you to a T.
End of Story
Big
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That was my philosophy with my Guild and I love that guitar. That neck didn't need to be reduced because it was thin enough already, but I had him sand off the original finish, stain it and treat it with tung oil so it feels like an unfinished neck. I really like the feel of bare wood like that. And the Guild was already "ruined" from a resale standpoint because it had been damaged long ago and repaired with bondo. I really need to post some pix of my guitars when I get home so you can see what I'm talking about.
I do really appreciate how passionate you guys are about this. I know I'm a goofball about equipment and I'm testing your patience, but I am truly grateful for your collective wisdom.
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I just spoke with Cat Fox at Sound Guitar Repair, I've never met her but she has an excellent reputation online. I went looking for a 2nd opinion in part because of some of the concerns expressed in this thread (especially those from Jim Soloway).
Cat says don't do it. You don't know exactly where the truss rod channel is. Gibson wasn't consistent and sometimes the truss rods themselves were somewhat curved. If you damage the structural integrity of the neck the instrument will be ruined.
So, anybody want to buy a really nicely refinished 1958 Gibson L-4C with a slightly chunky neck for a good price? I think I may post it in the for sale section here.
Thanks again for all your yea and nay votes. Now I'll find out how much this lost bet will cost me. <rolls eyes>
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If you take your time selling it, you may not lose anything. It's an instrument with a lot of fans and many of us prefer larger necks. Just be as patient as you are able and post the very best photos you can. Originally Posted by tonyp145
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Thanks Jim, will do
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Jim always offers sage advice and with good intention as do many others. Buying an instrument is always fraught with imponderables. I have bought instruments that I have tried, been wedded to, and after the fact discovered that she was not for me. I have also had the good fortune to buy instruments online that have met my every expectation.
Today I traded in a Collings Eastside at a more than considerable discount to purchase a Les Paul P90s reissue. The Collings is/was an incredible instrument that was not for me. I have no idea how it is going to work out with the Gibson but have my hopes set high. I recognize how fickle I am.
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That's my problem as well. I get bored and I start looking for something to get me excited again. I guess the only cure for that one is acceptance of that boredom and that's always been a bit elusive. OTOH at least I'm now doing it with much less expensive instruments. Originally Posted by deselby
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I went through a lot of instruments before finding what I Wanted. Then through nearly 50 amps. Then a few pickups. I must say though, I am very happy with my equipment and will probably play these exact things the rest of my giging life (I am 60).
Was it worth it??? Heck yes!!!
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Thanks fellas, now I'm leaning toward putting a pickup on my Godin 5th Ave and just using that and the Pat Metheny for my new band. There are certain songs where I need to go up the neck so I'll use the PM for those and the Godin when I want an acoustic sound. I'm thinking about getting a K&K archtop pickup for it.
Last edited by tonyp145; 03-02-2017 at 07:04 PM.
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This is my outlook as well. I never spend money on a guitar that doesn't compel me to part with those ducats. Originally Posted by BigMikeinNJ
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The world of online purchasing is surely a double edged sword. It opens so many possibilities for gear up that would never in a million years show up at our neighborhood store. Yet, it also makes us salivate over the "IDEA" of the thing without having interacted with it, which is where the true value lies for a musician. Who cares how fantastic the $10k boutique guitar looks and sounds if it is utterly painful to play?
I guess the other component is that there are collectors that play, and then there are players that collect. I'd venture most of us here are more of the latter. I don't have a ton of experience as a gearhead, but the purchases I have made are basically about pursuing what suits me best that I can get the best deal on. I'm not fundamentally interested in mint condition, original hardware, etc... I just want it to feel and sound right, which is why my Epi Blackstone has this monstrosity of bent metal for a tailpiece but I have no plans of "fixing" it as it sounds great and suits my needs.
I definitely feel the "gamble" metaphor though, as I've made several online purchases based on finding a great deal on a guitar that would otherwise have been unavailable. You try to do your research as best you can. Learn the specs that you favor, find reviews and demo vids... but in the end you either commit to limiting your options to what is immediately available in your local stores or you accept a degree of risk in not knowing exactly what's coming out of that UPS box.
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You win some and you lose some. With any skill it evens out in the end Originally Posted by tonyp145
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So a lot has happened since my last post. I went out of town for a few days to take care of a family emergency, but before I left I decided not to make any hasty decisions. The neck really isn't that bad, I've played Gibsons that were much thicker, I figured I could adjust to this one, and this guitar really is everything I was looking for otherwise.
Anyway, the guitar arrived with some pretty high action and when I screwed the bridge down to lower it I got fret buzz so I've been meaning to take it my guitar tech to get it properly set up. I did that today and got a whole lot of bad news about this guitar.
First the tailpiece is off center by about 1/8", just enough to push the high E string to the edge of the fret board, just out of range of the pickup (I noticed the E string didn't sound as loud as the other strings, but I have zero diagnostic ability). It's not the original tailpiece as it is chrome and the original would have been nickel. The guitar was refretted -- it wasn't disclosed but I wasn't surprised -- problem is the refret was not done well. There's a hump in the fingerboard around the 12th fret which means we won't be able to lower the action unless the fretboard is leveled and refretted again. Plus there are divots in the fretboard apparently from when that tech pulled the old frets out. Primarily cosmetic but still.
The real embarrassing thing is there is a fresh crack in the top and I didn't even notice it. Must have happened during shipping. He said it looks like there was an impact on the pickguard-mounted volume knob (I swear this guy could do guitar CSI). This would have happened if the box containing the guitar fell or was thrown and the guitar landed on its front. He thinks the pickguard and the floating pickup assembly should have been removed prior to shipping. Still, this is the easiest thing to fix and apparently pretty common with solid top guitars.
Anyway, I just emailed the seller and told him this has suddenly turned into a project guitar, which is not what I was expecting or wanted. I'd like to just return it and get my money back. I'll see what he says, but given that none of this stuff was disclosed, I think I'll have a pretty good case to file a claim. I'll post a couple of pix later.
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To center the strings on the fretboard, just move the bridge. You can do that without even loosening the strings. It will need to be retuned, but that's easy. It's not likely the tailpiece is off-center, just that the bridge wasn't centered when the strings were changed, or it shifted on its own sometime, maybe during shipping. Archtop bridges move, and are easily moved back, both for centering the strings and for intonation.
In the bottom picture, that doesn't look like a crack, just a finish scratch. But from just a picture, I can't say for sure.
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Yeah I guess those pix aren't going to work. When you push down on the pickguard the body opens up where it's cracked. As for the tailpiece the holes are drilled an 1/8" off of center. I understand it's a floating bridge but if you shove it over then the strings are at an angle from the tailpiece to the bridge. Strings should pull straight from the tailpiece through the bridge, through the nut to the posts. This guitar can't do that because the tailpiece wasn't installed properly.
The guy I'm working with has been building and fixing guitars for 40 years and spent about 30 minutes with me this afternoon examining the guitar and discussing the fixes. It can pretty much all be fixed but these are major repairs so I'm not thrilled.
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Sorry about your guitar problems. Hopefully you can get some redress. Good luck.
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Thanks, this is turning into quite the saga. Over the last few weeks I've had a couple of threads on here talking about guitar deals gone wrong. I think I'm going to try to take a break after this one is resolved and just play the guitars I have. Too stressful.
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Yeah, that isn't a crack, it's only finish-deep, I'll bet.
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Is the tailpiece actually off center, or is the seam off center? It's not unheard of to have the tailpiece a bit off center on the seam and the screw is better anchored in solid wood than in a seam. I figure when the builder fits the rims the exact seam location is not critical except from a visual standpoint, and Gibson isn't the most particular builder.
I've got a couple Gibson's that are a bit off (not quite as far as yours, but they're definitely not centered on the seam).Last edited by MaxTwang; 03-03-2017 at 02:18 AM.
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Refinished guitars throw up all kinds of red flags. I hope you get your money back, Tony.
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From what I have read, one should never have more than 5% of their assets, in collectible items. It would appear I could buy a few more, but there is a limit to the number, I want store, maintain, move, and dump on my children when it's my time to go. I have not been good at selling them.
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Oh no, "Precious Moment" ceramic figurines, comic books, Barbie and Ken dolls, Pez containers, GI Joe action figures, Cabbage Patch dolls, 1st edition Harry Potter books all represent the apogee of what Western Civilization can achieve.
They are sure to be highly prized by future generations in societies outside of the demographic cohort in which they originated.
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Oh boy, this thread is careening out of control rapidly. I deleted my post with the cell phone pix because frankly I find it a little annoying that people were assigning more weight to what they could see in those pix than the opinion of two people who had the guitar in their hands -- one of them a respected local luthier.
The crack is about 5 inches long, it extends well under the pickguard and when you apply pressure to the pickguard it opens up. It's a crack, happens frequently with solid top guitars. Tech told me if the guitar was a laminated model it probably wouldn't have happened because those guitars are more resilient to relatively minor impacts. Anyway it's not a big deal, it's clearly fixable.
The tailpiece is a bigger deal and yes it is off center. But the fretboard is probably the biggest problem. The frets need to be pulled so the fingerboard can be planed and new frets applied.
John my luthier also showed me something I'm not sure how to describe. The outer edges of the neck are curved in on both sides. He thinks the guitar was heavily played for so many years that the neck is literally worn in the middle (5th to 7th frets). Again I doubt I could get a good picture of it but you can see it when you sight down the neck. He thinks this might be an indication why someone thought a refin was necessary -- the guitar is pretty much worn out after decades of hard use. This is the opposite of a "closet queen", it looks like a brand new guitar because of the refin, but there are signs it has a lot of mileage on it. Another reason I'd rather walk away if I can. I'm concerned the problems we identified yesterday aren't going to be the end of the troubles with this guitar.
Anyway I do appreciate everybody's engagement, I just wanted to correct any misperceptions. Thanks again for your support.
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It's been a week since my last post, thought I'd check in again. The seller was not willing to take the guitar back so I opened a case with PayPal. They say that can take up to 90 days so we'll see what happens. I've put the guitar back in its case and put it away for now.
Last Friday I took the guitar to Joe Vinikow at Archtop.com, he's local and basically confirmed my suspicions. None of the hardware on this guitar is original to this instrument. The guitar was stripped or parted out and everything was replaced with cheaper parts. The original Kluson tuners were replaced with 3-on-a-tree tuners with plastic buttons, the nickel tailpiece was replaced with a chrome one, pickguard, bridge -- everything. Add in the refin and the only original thing about this guitar is the wood in the body and neck (I'm assuming). Swell.
I spent about an hour playing guitars at Joe's place. I'd never been there before. It's really archtop heaven. I played some guitars that were so far out of my financial range I really had no business touching them. But it was a good education. I feel like I finally know the exact specs I want in an archtop guitar:
Carved solid wood archtop acoustic with a cutaway
16" lower bout
3" depth
1 11/16" nut width
Slim D shape neck
Single pickup
He had a few guitars that had this combination of features but one in particular really stood out: a 2006 Campellone Standard.
2006 Campellone Standard
It's a lot of money for me, but I'm seriously considering it. The neck, the body size, everything about this guitar is comfortable and the sound is incredible. He has a newer sunburst model that's nearly identical, but I didn't like the sound of the pickup in that one. It's a Burstbucker which seemed too dark in that guitar. The 2006 Campellone has a Classic 57 and it really brings out the acoustic qualities of the instrument. My wife's been out of town for the past week, she just got home last night, I'm going to talk to her about it this weekend. I wish we didn't still have this Gibson hanging over us but I'm not keeping it either way. If I can't return it I'll get it fixed and sell it. I have a conscience so I'll disclose all the flaws my seller chose not to. I'll probably lose some money on it, but someone will buy it. It's still a good guitar.
Anyway, thanks for listening as always.
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