Are Digital Modelers Killing Tube Amps?

**Jabberwocky** · 02-18-2017, 06:59 PM

Originally Posted by medblues

I think Yamaha (THR100HD) is attempting that. No menus, programming or presets. Just some power tube types and preamp styles. You can get it sound great without hooking it up to your computer.

I thought that the original THR breadboxes were on the right track if only they had a true line-out for going direct into a power amp and integrated all presets in one model. OK, larger stereo speakers and more power will also help, like a boombox.

The THR100 seems to miss the mark. I don't find it as engaging as any of the THR10 presets. The THR10X was a box of fun. Those presets are really good. Fat, meaty, crunchy, reactive to your pick. The Clean is great and one of the presets clean up when you back the gain off. More than the highly touted Kemper PFA I thought that the Yamaha THR10 was the real threat to tube amps if Yamaha upsized it because the THR10 had an "amp in the room with you" sound to it.

I suspect Yamaha will take a look at the BOSS Katana and make something like that but at 3X the price.

**medblues** · 02-18-2017, 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

I though that the original THR breadboxes were on the right track if only they had a true line-out for going direct into a power amp and integrated all presets in one model. OK, larger stereo speakers and more power will also help, like a boombox.

The THR100 seems to miss the mark. I don't find it as engaging as any of the THR10 presets. The THR10X was a box of fun. Those presets are really good. Fat, meaty, crunchy, reactive to your pick. The Clean is great and one of the presets clesn up when you back the gain off. More than the highly touted Kemper PFA I thought that the Yamaha THR10 was the real threat to tube amps if Yamaha upsized it because the THR10 had an "amp in the room with you" sound to it.

I agree, I have the THR10C with the classic amps and I was using the headphone output into a powered speaker as you suggested (not a true line-out though). THR100HD XLR line-outs work better but the simplicity of the THR10 is lost and it does not allow you to have favorite saved tones like the THR10C does.

What I like about THR100HD is the dedicated stereo cab with the unmatched Eminence drivers and the ability to experiment with different mixes with the footswitch and having EQ, reverb and boost all adjustable with outside knobs and the switch. I usually pick KT88s and mix and match the different preamps in stereo.

**rhoadsscholar** · 02-18-2017, 10:02 PM

I happen to really like the Fender Mustang III, IV and V v2 amps. They have come a long way. You really have to tweak the presets but for the price (less thank $300 for the Mustang III v2 at 100 watts, it is hard to ignore how great they are).

This guy on youtube puts the Mustang up against the real deals and it is pretty amazing to watch, take a look. He has about 10 different comparisons. The fuse software that comes with the amp is really fun and is demonstrated in the 1st video. Check out the twin for Jazz stuff.

Let your ears be the judge. You can get the mustang III v2 for $275 from Guitar Center when they have various 15 % off sales. If you go used, make sure you get the v2 as they corrected alot in the modeling.

I still have a 1972 Pro Reverb, 1973 Princeton Reverb, 1984 Marshall JCM 800 but often times I find myself using the Mustang III or the mustang V (stereo head). I like the kemper profiler concept, but it is costly and may part with some of the glass to get one.

**GNAPPI** · 02-19-2017, 12:14 AM

Originally Posted by vinlander

IMHO not until the user manual of modellers is as thin as a typical tube amp.
Plug and play your instrument vs plug and play with endless menu and settings, sometimes less is more.
The one thing I love about the cube over most modellers is not its superior tone quality but its straightforwardness.
When cube style modellers really start sounding as good as a Kemper or AxFX then they will really take over.

Ha, you reminded me of a car GPS I once bought. I went down to Miami trying to find a restaurant and I was sitting at the corner about three blocks away from the restaurant and the map on the GPS wanted me to get on an interstate for two exits, and double back. The road the restaurant was on had been there well over 50 years. I made the right turn and took the 3 block short route instead.

The next day I called the GPS maker, and they told me to download and update the factory map. I asked how a newer map update on a brand new GPS would tell me better directions to get to a point on a road that's been there 50+ years. No answer, she just said to update the map.

**SustaiNZ** · 02-19-2017, 02:22 AM

I have nothing against modelers, but for the sake of simplicity I'm going the route of a decent SS amp as an alternative/back-up to my Mesa.

Used - I'm looking at an old Yamaha G50-112 or G100 1(or)212 like what Robben Ford was using for a while back in the day.

New - I think the Quilters are hard to beat.

**Alter** · 02-19-2017, 06:31 AM

Are Digital Modelers Killing Tube Amps?

No. They are not even killing solid state amps

**Wildcat** · 02-19-2017, 09:22 AM

And MSR $299.00

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

That's the ticket; hope it does a great tubey clean.

**Herbie** · 02-20-2017, 12:41 PM

Are Digital Modelers Killing Tube Amps?

Yes, just like the tube amps killed the acoustic guitars in '40s.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 02-20-2017, 01:18 PM

Big tube amps are killing ... my back!

**Herbie** · 02-20-2017, 04:01 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Big tube amps are killing ... my back!

That's why they call them killer amps!

Modelers are just a novelty toys 'cause they never model the weight of the tube amps!

Seriously speaking: tube amps are an instruments on their own. Modelers are... Modelers, they model something else, without which they are quite a lot of nothing.

I mean that if they are so brilliant why do they have texts like American, British, Blues etc in their index or what it is?

Of course they are handy, fast and sound great. I use Garageband modelers in making my demos, always better sounding than I could ever record at home.

But why would I travel with every amp, fx and cab in my rig when I need just one?

These are things that make me think if I am too old if I say this!

**jorgemg1984** · 02-20-2017, 09:15 PM

Originally Posted by Herbie

That's why they call them killer amps!

Modelers are just a novelty toys 'cause they never model the weight of the tube amps!

Seriously speaking: tube amps are an instruments on their own. Modelers are... Modelers, they model something else, without which they are quite a lot of nothing.

I mean that if they are so brilliant why do they have texts like American, British, Blues etc in their index or what it is?

Of course they are handy, fast and sound great. I use Garageband modelers in making my demos, always better sounding than I could ever record at home.

But why would I travel with every amp, fx and cab in my rig when I need just one?

These are things that make me think if I am too old if I say this!

Pasi, I really don't get your point and you end answering your own "question" - "handy, fast and sound great".

The names you see there are names given to avoid paying rights. If you called an amp "Fender Twin Reverb", you would have to pay Fender some fee, call it "American Clean" and you're good to go. Kinda like when you see "Stella by the stars" on a jazz method book.

The reason why some many people here dismiss modelling it's obvious (putting the usual "old is always better" approach on the side, for a while) - most here don't need it, having the money to buy good amps and not needing to carry them. My current board has 3 pedals, cost me around 600€ (some were used), it's incredibly light and I can enter anywhere with a mixer and a PA and have the best sound I have ever heard with 100% consistency. This makes most gigs, rehearsals and recordings a much more relaxed event and I only wish more places here had a PA, I would never carry my PA cab.

I'm also a one amp kinda of guy but think about the people who, on one gig, need 4 or 5 different sounds - isn't a little easier carrying a modeler than 4 or 5 different amps? Or even people who play at home, but enjoy playing several styles, from cleans to blues to hard rock? Sometimes I get a little bored with my sound, change the preamp and the cab and I get a whole new amp!

**Alder Statesman** · 02-20-2017, 10:08 PM

Originally Posted by rhoadsscholar

I happen to really like the Fender Mustang III, IV and V v2 amps. They have come a long way. You really have to tweak the presets but for the price (less thank $300 for the Mustang III v2 at 100 watts, it is hard to ignore how great they are).

This guy on youtube puts the Mustang up against the real deals and it is pretty amazing to watch, take a look. He has about 10 different comparisons. The fuse software that comes with the amp is really fun and is demonstrated in the 1st video. Check out the twin for Jazz stuff.

Let your ears be the judge. You can get the mustang III v2 for $275 from Guitar Center when they have various 15 % off sales. If you go used, make sure you get the v2 as they corrected alot in the modeling.

I still have a 1972 Pro Reverb, 1973 Princeton Reverb, 1984 Marshall JCM 800 but often times I find myself using the Mustang III or the mustang V (stereo head). I like the kemper profiler concept, but it is costly and may part with some of the glass to get one.

Shane at In The Blues ditched his 'stangs about a year ago. Last I heard he mostly plays through a Pro Reverb.

Traded my Mustang IV V2 in for a SuperSonic 22 about the same time. The Mustang just did not have the vibe.

I still have a mfx pedal with modeling that I used just this evening to record. I needed a bass guitar sym, but I prefer the tube amp whenever possible. I would rather experminent with preamp tubes over modeling tweaks.

YMMV

**Alder Statesman** · 02-20-2017, 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Maybe we need the Apple iAmp.

And it's all relative. Talk to a hard core folk guitarist.

Apple. Hard core?

Sorry, couldn't help myself

**Herbie** · 02-21-2017, 03:58 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Pasi, I really don't get your point and you end answering your own "question" - "handy, fast and sound great".

The names you see there are names given to avoid paying rights. If you called an amp "Fender Twin Reverb", you would have to pay Fender some fee, call it "American Clean" and you're good to go. Kinda like when you see "Stella by the stars" on a jazz method book. (...)

Sorry for writing confusingly. But the word 'Stella' in Your question helped to clear my thoughts:

The question of modelers and tube amps is not a right question.

Modelers are like cover bands, trying to sound something else, something original.

Tube amps ARE original, they are like, hmm, an original band! Rolling Stones, Jimi Hendrix, U2, Miles Davis.

Can the cover bands "kill" the original bands? In a right place a cover band is better than anything, but in the long run there is no cover bands without bands who make their original music.

I hope that this is less confusing contribution to this discussion!

(And as an 'Angus' of an late AC/DC tribute band I know that a cover band too can be artistically ambitious! I don't disrespect them.)

**jorgemg1984** · 02-21-2017, 09:22 AM

Pasi, I get your point - I hope I'm not sounding confrontational, not my intention.

I don't think that's a fair comparison - amps are tools, artists are not. There's nothing magical or particularly original about a guitar amp, it just works. I don't want to hear a Miles Davis clone, but if I can get something that sounds like a Twin Reverb but it's much lighter, cheaper and consistent, what's there to loose? If it sounds the same (in my opinion, even better, because cab emulations are done with mixers and preamps and mics I could never afford or bring to a gig), who cares? You've listened to lots of shows and recordings done with modellers and enjoyed the music as much as if they were made with an amp.

Lots of people here would start to love modellers if they had to carry their tube amps trough subways and crowded streets.

PS - One thing that it's important, modellers are designed mainly to sound like miced amps not like actual amps, which is quite different (of course, you can turn cab emulation off and use a regular cab but you'll loose most of the magic).

**Herbie** · 02-21-2017, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Pasi, I get your point - I hope I'm not sounding confrontational, not my intention.

I don't think that's a fair comparison - amps are tools, artists are not. There's nothing magical or particularly original about a guitar amp, it just works. I don't want to hear a Miles Davis clone, but if I can get something that sounds like a Twin Reverb but it's much lighter, cheaper and consistent, what's there to loose? If it sounds the same (in my opinion, even better, because cab emulations are done with mixers and preamps and mics I could never afford or bring to a gig), who cares? You've listened to lots of shows and recordings done with modellers and enjoyed the music as much as if they were made with an amp.

Lots of people here would start to love modellers if they had to carry their tube amps trough subways and crowded streets.

PS - One thing that it's important, modellers are designed mainly to sound like miced amps not like actual amps, which is quite different (of course, you can turn cab emulation off and use a regular cab but you'll loose most of the magic).

It's alright Jorge, I understand Your point and as I earlier said, there is a lot of good things in modelers.

As one can see, I am confused on their theoretical aspects. I can't stop thinking the substance of a copier. But that is my problem!

But aren't bands and artists tools? I think that the audience thinks us musicians as tools (to have fun, to see different people etc) more than we would like to!

**jorgemg1984** · 02-21-2017, 10:09 AM

Yeah, I get your point too - but pragmatism is important here, I don't care how it's made, how care how it sounds

I do hope people don't see us just as tools for having fun... really!!

**Bluedawg** · 02-21-2017, 02:05 PM

Modelers for gigging seem to be overkill for most jazz players .... most jazz guitarists are happy with a good guitar .. usually an archtop or hollow body .. and an easily portable amp .... your average jazz rig is already simpler than most modeling rigs ....

Now if you really have to have the sound of a Twin Reverb then a good modeler and full range speakers may be easier to manage than a Twin

Over at TGP the guys who gig with modelers are looking for something to replace big heavy tube amps and cabinets or who need a wide variety of sounds for multiple styles of rock, pop, and blues

Will modelers kill the sale of amps?

My guess is that most guitar players with modelers will probably keep 2 or 3 nice amps to have around the house or for special gigs and jam sessions ... most of us will find it hard to let go of our favorite amps and some of us will find amp models that will inspire us to bring the real thing home

**nopedals** · 02-21-2017, 02:23 PM

I don't have a tube amp right now, but I saw a note on slickdeals last week that monoprice had a special on a tube amp with spring reverb, 15 watts and a 12 inch celestion for $135, and that was only about $50 off the regular price. That's $23 in 1972 dollars.

If our friends in China can make them that cheap, they are never going away.

**ronjazz** · 02-21-2017, 06:38 PM

Modelers aren't going away, either.

**deselby** · 02-21-2017, 07:27 PM

It's technology though at times you might think it religion. Who gives a shite. If it works for you that's what matters whether it be analogue, SS or digital. I have all three and use them accordingly. Also have solid bodies, archtops and acoustics and use them depending on the application.

One thing is certain though. With the advent of DSPs and better algorithms modellers have improved by leaps and bounds. There was a similar advance in SS amps when the non-linear effects of harmonic distortion were better understood. It made for warmer sounding SS amps..

**NSJ** · 02-24-2017, 09:46 AM

I feel sorry for people that are blowing tens of thousands of dollars on amps and have a huge collection of stuff that collects dust .

http://www.guitarplayer.com/gear/101...fference/61961

**wzpgsr** · 02-24-2017, 10:07 AM

I have little doubt that good modeling can be indistinguishable from the real thing in certain contexts: recordings, venues where you're listening to your mic'd amp through a monitor, hell, maybe even all live situations in which you should be focusing on music not "tone." Having said that, I personally prefer the sound of an open-backed guitar amp when I am playing at home for practice or fun and in small gigging situations. I played a few rock gigs with a modeler through a FRFR speaker or through a PA and no matter the venue, it always lacked the depth that an open backed cab provides when interacting with walls, floor, etc. Context is everything here, I believe. At the end of the day, modelers like Kemper and AxeFX are emulating mic'd up amps and that is not everyone's cup of tea.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**artcore** · 02-24-2017, 06:14 PM

The mustangs are tweakable....just as a tube amp once you have your presets.....I don't see a problem there.....nothing to be afraid about......the built in effects are good....( seem to be to me).....the headphone jack is absolutely necessary for me at home....if I had a tube amp it would collect dust....as a home player......

**jorgemg1984** · 04-11-2017, 06:09 PM

James Hetfield and Kirk Hammett: “The Most Surprising Thing About Our Guitar Rigs” | GuitarPlayer

"The problem used to be staying consistent with the amp sounds, because one system would usually have a better-sounding amp than the other, and James and I would always know which system sounded better. But we solved that problem when we switched to Fractal Axe-FX processors. Now we have the same guitar sound everywhere—even in rehearsal.

Hetfield: We’re really pleased with Fractal. It’s amazing. For my rig, we went into the studio and put some sounds into it—a combination of my Mesa/Boogie amps mixed in with a little bit of my Diezel sound. The clean sounds are from the Roland JC-120. On stage, Mesa 2:Ninety power amps drive my cabinets, but those cabs aren’t miked at all. They’re only there for my monitoring, for getting feedback, and for just feeling it. The Fractal is going direct to the board.

Hammett: For a while, we didn’t have any cabinets onstage, but that was just too weird. I need to hear something. I need to feel the air being pushed by the speakers for it to sound natural to me. So I have one cabinet on stage for monitoring, and one cabinet in a flight case with a fixed mic on it."