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Sorry I've been absent for a while, but work has been nuts, and as a result, I've been kind of scarce. As you may recall, while I like my Gretsch Country Club, I also have a hankering for another guitar. Two guitars that have been on my radar for some time, are the D'Angelico EXL-1, and the Howard Roberts Custom. I especially like the Howard Roberts Custom (maybe because I used to gig with a Howard Roberts Fusion in the 90s
), but will admit that the prices for them, have been a bit out of my range. The EXL-1 is a nice guitar (and also sounds surprisingly good unplugged). Well, the thing is, that I have an opportunity to get either a Howard Roberts Custom, or an EXL-1, without killing my finances. My favorite local guitar shop is now a D'Angelico dealer, and they have an EXL-1 on the wall. The neck seems nice, and being a regular customer of the shop I get good deals. The Howard Roberts Custom is a late 90s Epiphone reissue on Reverb, going for a little less than the EXL-1.
I can't afford both, so it's one or the other, or neither of them. A Howard Roberts Custom has been on my GAS list for some time (though I would assume that being a 90s Epiphone, I'd have to do a pickup swap), but by the same token, I do have a soft spot for 17" wide jazz boxes, and the EXL-1 is a nice sounding guitar (as are Howard Roberts Customs). What do you esteemed players think?
A Thoroughly Befuddled Ellen
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12-06-2016 06:38 PM
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I love the way the Howard Roberts look and sound, so it's a no brainer for me, get the Epi!
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I agree, plus it will hold its value versus depreciating.
So to pick your brain, what are the differences between the different Howard Roberts Fusion series? I'v noticed i throug iii out there.
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I had a 1980 Fusion I (sold years ago, when money was tight). The Fusion I and Fusion II both have stop tailpieces like an ES-335. The Fusion III has a (sort of) trapeze style tailpiece made up of individual brass fingers, with fine tuners, that the strings are anchored in. The control layouts are also different between the different models. The Fusion I has its volume and tone controls in the same spread and configuration as an L5, Les Paul, 335, etc. Both the Fusion II and Fusion III have the tone controls spread out to the point that the arrangement of all 4 pots (volume and tone) looks trapezoidal. Also, whereas the Fusion I has its pickup selector in the top bout like a Les Paul, the pickup selector for the Fusion II and Fusion II is located between the two tone controls. Oh, I forgot to mention that the cutaway on a Fusion III for lack of a better term, seems to be more "scooped out" than it is for the Fusion I and Fusion II.
Originally Posted by Cavalier
All of the changes mentioned, IMO, seem to take the guitar further away from its original "sort of a large semi-hollow Les Paul" configuration, in the Fusion I, to a more of a Les Paul meets '335 blend (though the body depth is significantly deeper than that of a '335). I also wouldn't be surprised if the guitar was lightened up. I've never played a Fusion II (they don't seem to be as common as the other two versions), but I did briefly play a Fusion III, and it did seem to be a bit lighter than my Fusion I (which was frankly a bit of a boat anchor - I used to get a sore shoulder playing that thing, by the time the middle of the second set rolled around). Fusion IIIs seem to be the most common, and have been made since at least the mid 90s (though at the present time, Gibson doesn't seem to be making them).
Another thing I forgot to mention - since the Howard Roberts Fusion models are semi-hollow, they all have center blocks (like an ES-335). Oddly enough, the center block is made out of balsa wood (Gibson cheesed out, and called the center block material Chromyte)!
They're neat guitars, but they seem to be kind of pricey on the ground, unless you buy one of the Japanese lawsuit ones (there's a Hondo version on Reverb at the present time). I think they're kind of cool, but besides the price, I'm not sure I really want a 14" wide guitar anymore (for hollows and semi-hollows, I seem to have gravitated towards larger bodied guitars).
Howard Roberts Fusion I (the model I had - for most of the 90s it was my main gigging guitar)
Howard Roberts Fusion II
Howard Roberts Fusion III
Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 12-07-2016 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Spelling Correction
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Hey thanks! I think I like the series I best. The series III fingered tailpiece does seem to help offset the look of the odd control layout. I've noticed the high prices, things seem to run in cycles with affordable guitars getting picked up by speculators.
Good luck with your dilemma! It looks like both directions have fans.
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5 minutes ago I hadn't heard of a Howard Roberts Fusion II. Now I have to have one.
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Ellen has had the earlier model and her comments on weight steered me away from them. I read that they could go over 12 pounds.
The HR III, beside being 1" thicker than a 335 it is lighter than 335's (~7 lb 11 oz. vs. 8 lb 6 oz. respectively) by ~ 11 ounces mostly because the III has a balsa center block versus the maple blocks in the 335. The III also has a slightly wider neck than the 335 at (~ .030") the 12th fret
The III also has an ebony FB and paired 490 pups. The HR III Is also better balanced than a 335 which is weighted more to the lower bout and you gotta love the gold metal parts and tulip tuner buttons.
All in all if I could not have both, I would pick the HR III over a 335.
PS.The D'Angelico models I own have all been excellent gits.Last edited by GNAPPI; 12-07-2016 at 07:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by GNAPPI
My Fusion I (a 1980 tobacco sunburst, that I picked up at Dave's Guitar Shop in early 1993 - I got it for a great price, due to it having a headstock repair [that was so well done, that the repair was difficult to detect, and the tuning was stability was rock solid]), had the same thickness body, and ebony fretboard as the Fusion III. I loved its neck, but yes, Fusion Is are quite heavy. I weighed mine two different ways (even going so far as to use a calibrated scale at work to verify the weight), and learned it weighed 13.5 pounds! which certainly explained why I ended up with a sore left shoulder whenever I played it for extended periods of time. So, to all of the guitar players who say that a 9 or 10 lb Les Paul or Strat feels like a ton, when its slung over their shoulder, quit your whining! You don't know heavy! IIRC, the Fusion Is (and possibly the Fusion IIs) had the now highly regarded Shawbuckers (Gibson pickups designed by Tim Shaw), but I'm not sure if mine did, due to the fact that mine had no covers on the pickups. So, they might have been replacements, or whoever owned it before me, did the old 60s & 70s mod of removing the pickup covers.
I will admit, that I still have a soft spot for Howard Roberts Fusions, and do feel torn at times about getting something other than another one. The chances are good that I might have still had my Fusion I (despite its heavy weight), because it sounded and played so good, but I was flat broke, the guitar was at the point where it might have needed a refret (which as I know from having to get all of my guitars refretted with hypoallergenic Jescar EVO Gold frets, due to my mega nickel allergy, can be quite expensive), and I needed money for bills. Oh well.Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 12-07-2016 at 09:01 AM.
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I probably wouldn't skip on a good deal on a series I, II, or III to fill my semi hollow gap. The balsa has to be the secret for the warm sound.
That Ibanez/Starfield Howard Roberts on Reverb might be worth pondering. It doesn't have name recognition but it is a MIJ I believe.
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Do you think it's better than the Epiphone (which is also on Reverb)? Originally Posted by Cavalier
Epiphone Howard Roberts Black Transparent | Reverb
1977 Starfield 2453 (Howard Roberts Model) (Ibanez) | Reverb
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Never played one, but those HRs look just beautiful, and they seem to be a good deal as far as Gibsons go.
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I haven't played either so couldn't answer fairly. From cars to guitars I've learned every one has to pull their own trigger as individual tastes differ so much. This also keeps me from getting shot if I'm wrong! To be sure the black epiphone is striking. The best thing I could suggest is to read reviews of everything. Looking at some of the prices you're also half way towards getting a Gibson so may want to wait as a alternative.
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Hmmm, that's a good point. At the very least, I'll probably do a bit more thinking before I make a choice. Originally Posted by Cavalier
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I recently enjoyed a concert of the Joey DeFrancesco Trio where Dan Wilson played a HR Fusion III through a reissue Twin Reverb. He got a great sound out of it (and the design look very good to me). Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
Howard Roberts Fusion III
But tell me about this foto, how could you manage to balance the guitar without falling down. (I would be scared to attempt this).
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Good question. It's not my guitar, it's just a decent photo of a Fusion III I found on the web. Originally Posted by JazzNote
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On 2nd thought - most probably it is a photo montage. Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
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Curious what the difference is between the HR Fusion 1 and an ES-135/137?
My 135 has a balsa block but a trapeze tailpiece. Really nice, versatile sound. It's kind of heavy--8-9 pounds, but not 13 pounds! How the heck could they make a guitar that heavy? Lead center block?
The Epi HR is sure a unique guitar--bet it sounds "light and airy" but worry about feedback.
BTW, I used to live in La Crosse and know Dave Rogers (of Dave's Guitars) on a casual basis. He's a real standup guy. Best selection of Gibson's maybe anywhere in the world (and Martins and Fenders).
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You've got great taste in guitars. I too am a fan of the HR series, and owned a cherry red III for many years.
I swapped out the 490 p'ups for Gibson 57 classics and loved the tones.
That Epi looks very very nice. Not sure what the neck profile is though. It looks thin from the photos.
Also, look for a '70's Ibanez-branded HR, one of the best Gibson copies out there.
Good hunting!
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Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
I've been going to Dave's off and on since 1990 (when they were in their original shop). But it is on the other side of the state from me (I bought my Howard Roberts Fusion I from Dave's when I lived in my hometown of Manitowoc, and I live in the Milwaukee area nowadays, so I usually go to Cream City Music [I only live like 5 miles from the place]), so I haven't been there since 2011. Back in the 90s, Dave's seemed to be the only place in the state selling cool guitars and amps.
As for the weight of the Howard Roberts Fusion I, the only thing I can figure, is that the center block may have been larger than the ones used in the II, and III versions (I'm pretty sure that the one in my old Fusion I, went the entire length of the body - the one in the III may have only been in the bridge area).
With regards to the ES135 & ES137 - I think I can answer that. I used to have an ES137 (and am on the lookout for another one - I never should have traded mine for another guitar [that I no longer have]). The ES135 & 137 basically use an ES-175 body (complete with the same cutaway), but thinner. It's 2 inches deep (about the same as the Howard Roberts Fusion) vs the 3.5 inch deep body of the ES-175. And of course unlike and ES-175, the ES-135 and ES-137 have a center block in them. Oh, and since the basic body profile of the ES-135 & 137 is like an ES-175, they're larger bodied than a Howard Roberts Fusion (16 inches wide vs 14 inches for a Howard Roberts Fusion).
Thanks for the info, and yes Howies are great guitars. Originally Posted by Gitfiddler
Last edited by EllenGtrGrl; 12-10-2016 at 11:34 AM. Reason: Speling Correction
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Ah, I see. Smaller than a 135 but 50% heavier...I still don't get it! Originally Posted by EllenGtrGrl
Another guitar which the Fusion 1 really looks like is the Godin Montreal Premiere. I think the Premiere is 15"--someone correct me if I'm wrong--but visually the similarity is striking.
Godin Montreal Premiere Electric Guitar Review
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I played a Montreal Premier a couple of years ago, and I still kind of GAS for them. They're very nice guitars IMO, and other than the neck and body being a tad thinner, they are pretty similar to a Howard Roberts Fusion. Oh boy!!! I'd forgotten about them!!! And to make things worse, I have a Sweetwater credit card (Sweetwater has them in stock). Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
Most stop and think...........
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You're looking at it as apples and apples, they are not. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
The HRF body is LONGER than a LP by an inch, and thicker by nearly 3/4". The HRF 1 had a maple block, and LP's have a lighter wood body like mahogany. Also the heel of the HRF neck is 3/4" longer than a LP.
LP's can break the 10 lb limit but most HRF I's I read about are ~12-13 lbs.
Ellen must have been unlucky to get some really dense maple that may have been wider or closer to the F holes than the 12+ lb ones I read about.
For sure whichever HRF is in your hands they are GR8 instruments.
Ellen, if you get your hands on a 135 with P100's try to approach it like I did, compensate in your head for their slightly weaker thinner sound for completely noisless pups, and crank up the amp a notch or two and use the EQ on the amp.
I'll take them anyday over a noisy P90.
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Hmmmm, that's good to know. I actually have a line on an ES-135. I know that many players prefer P90s to P100s (and I did like the humbuckers my ES-137 had), but it was a nice guitar. The thing is, that I put an Ibanez Artstar AS80 on layaway (I had the blinged out with gold plating AS-120 brother of it a few years ago, and I regret selling it), and I'd have to swap the layaway to the ES-135. And/or downgrade the amp I ordered (that hasn't arrived yet), to a cheaper amp. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
This kind of sucks for me, due to the fact that with my severe nickel allergy (discovered by a dermatologist back in 2014, when I got dermatitis so bad, I wound up with a major infection) makes trying out guitars a thorny proposition. If it isn't the nickel strings on electric guitars that beat me up, it's the nickel frets on all guitars. Washing my hands off after playing, doesn't even help me. I've had it where I've tried out guitars (knowing I was going to pay the price for doing so), only to be driving home afterwords, have my legs start itching like crazy, and end up with skin breakouts as a result of my little guitar test driving session, due to me getting a (immune) systemic related reaction (I get the dermatitis everywhere else, but on my hands, despite them touching the strings - my immune system goes bonkers). People say I should try playing while wearing rubber gloves, but it would be my luck they would break, and I would wind up with my bare fingers touching the strings. Nowadays, the closest I can get to trying an electric guitar, is to grab the neck near where the nut is, so I can put the price tag over the strings, grab onto the the neck, and at least check out how thick it is (I don't like thin necks). It adds to the dilemma of buying new guitars for me.
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Well. P90 or 100's with a wood bridge, old ES175 style plastic button tuners (or pearl / wood) and tape wound strings are just the ticket for you.
It shouldn't be too hard to modify whatever you end up with.
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I would have posted this yesterday, but for some reason, I couldn't access the forum yesterday (I could access other online sites - just not this one). Originally Posted by GNAPPI
Well, I put the issue to bed yesterday. I got to thinking more and more that an ES-135 or ES-137 might be what I was looking for, since I had fond memories of my old semi-hollow Howard Roberts Fusion, but really wanted something with a larger body (I also remembered that my old ES-137 was a very good guitar). I had the day off from work, so I went to Cream City Music (where I had the amp on order, and the Ibanez Artstar AS80 on layaway). I asked to take another look at one of the Gibson ES-135s they had. I compared the necks of the '135 to the Artstar I had on layaway, and the Gibby won hands down - it had a much chunkier neck (which I prefer). So, I canceled the amp order, I canceled the layaway on the Artstar, took the money from those two items, and with some additional cash, bought the ES-135. I didn't bring it home with me, due to the fact that I decided to get the refret done now (remember, I'm allergic to nickel), instead of waiting (I determined that my finances, with some judicial budgeting, could handle the refret cost at the present time. So, now I'm the owner of a 1996 Gibson ES-135. Cool! I'll leave the P100s in for now, to see if they work out for me. It they don't, it's no big deal for me to put in P90s (I have a background in electronics, and am not averse to melting a little solder - I've also replaced pickups in archtops in the past).
My 1996 Gibson ES-135 (not my photo - the photo is from Cream City's website)
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