High-end laminate options?

[Max405]

I think the 175 has the benchmark sound for jazz guitar. The rest is up to the individual playing it.
And it just so happens to be a laminate.

[QAman]

I think the 175 has the benchmark sound for jazz guitar. The rest is up to the individual playing it.
And it just so happens to be a laminate.

Well said Joe. The 175 is certainly a standard to be admired . The other laminate offerings by private luthiers have different tonal characteristics and appeal to specific tastes.

What's interesting is the 175 is a shorter scale and loved by many, yet I see a propensity by many to gravitate to the 25-1/2 scale laminate - which creates an interesting juxtaposition of sorts when comparing tone.

For me , I prefer the shorter scale ( for physical reasons ) with a slightly flatter neck angle, forgoing the snappy properties( be- bop flat wound thump) to a warmer sustain , reminiscent of an acoustic Archtop. Sort of a smoky lush fat ringing tone- with increased note duration. My Trenier provides this in mega doses. The string tension is effortless, the top vibrates like crazy and the laminate provides this warmth that Jim Soloway so eloquently described.

Of course my choice would fail miserably in a gigging loud amplified setting , but for my style of intimate playing it's perfect.

But to your point , I think the 175 was / is the basis from which all else originated.

[vinlander]

No laminated Archtop thread would be complete without at least mentionning the full scale ES 350 and its descendant the Tal. I am one of those who prefer the 25.5 scale for its quicker attack but still like the thunk of the laminated maple.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

No laminated Archtop thread would be complete without at least mentionning the full scale ES 350 and its descendant the Tal. I am one of those who prefer the 25.5 scale for its quicker attack but still like the thunk of the laminated maple.

Just daydreaming: Is there a laminated archtop with a 25 1/2" scale but a smaller body, like 15" or 16". I know the Heritage Sweet 16 has a 25 1/2" scale but it is carved. And not necessarily high-end!

[Groyniad]

so do you think a modern tal is a better option than say a 50s 300 or 150 or 350? (from a purely practical playing point of view)?

[helios]

If pressed tops in general are included, I would have to add the Made In Japan archtops from Ibanez:

LGB300



PM200



AF200

[vinlander]

so do you think a modern tal is a better option than say a 50s 300 or 150 or 350? (from a purely practical playing point of view)?

I would not say better because modern instruments tend to not have the same resonance as the old ones; but for me it is the best second choice.
Of course if I had more than 3K to spend on a guitar, I would probably chase down an original Tal or the grail:
an ES 350cc.
Notable mention of Agentsmith's Kessel in the for sale section close to a 2nd hand Tal in price but from the glorious early 60s...

[yebdox]

how can you beat the 175 ?

and the reasons are so damn musical

it retains ultra silver-crisp sparkle whilst giving you earthy wood depths - jeezus what a guitar!

i find both clips above sound dull and lifeless compared to a good 175

e.g. BOTH of these:

am i mad or are these not obviously world beating sounds (if you like, erm, jazz)?

Mine sounds like that, so round and full. A decent tube amp is a must for a portion of that, though, IME. My sadowsky CAN sound like that, but with radically different settings on my amp. Go figure. I'm swapping the stock Dimarzio for a Lollar Imperial when I get a chance, just to see why the tone is so different between the two. But this example is what I think of for a good 175 tone, not too middy.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Just daydreaming: Is there a laminated archtop with a 25 1/2" scale but a smaller body, like 15" or 16". I know the Heritage Sweet 16 has a 25 1/2" scale but it is carved. And not necessarily high-end!

Is it acceptable to reply to oneself? I see the 1980's Ibanez Joe Pass (JP20) had a 25 1/2" scale and 16" width (and a 1 3/4" nut). I don't know how often they pop up.

[Hammertone]

Just daydreaming: Is there a laminated archtop with a 25 1/2" scale but a smaller body, like 15" or 16". I know the Heritage Sweet 16 has a 25 1/2" scale but it is carved. And not necessarily high-end!

Hofner has had its own light-weight laminates for over 60 years. Since the early 1950s, they have made thousands of lovely 16" archtops in Germany with 25 1/4" scale-length necks. Here's a German-built Thin President that I got a year ago, with 2" rims. It's one of seven put together by Dieter Fischer just before he retired for good, with some old-school Hofner touches not seen for many years, like a 5-piece neck, 14th fret neck/body joint, and Florentine cutaway:



Being built:

[sgcim]

Borys Instrument LLC | Facebook

$5000 for a B120 Deluxe with TKL case. $4800 if you BYOC (Bring Your Own Case). Wait: 15 to 18 months quoted but not written in stone. It is on Borys time.

$5000 is the current quote on all of the laminated Borys guitars, I think, be it the B222 Jazz Solid, B122, 16" Jimmy Wyble or the 16" or 17" B120 Deluxe or Custom. Fancy fretboard inlays may be an upcharge. Ask him. Whatever you do, if he suggests Strawberry, ask to see it first before agreeing to it. I like his Tangerine-Lemon Burst, Iced Tea Burst, Caramel Burst, Dark Sunburst, Violin Burst and Dark Cherry Sunburst. And Natural, of course.

Standard scale length is 25". Standard rim depth is 2.75". Standard nut width is 1.75". Roger says he can make you any scale length, nut width and rim depth you desire. But the standard is what he feels works best with his B120 Deluxe. He has a selection of shaped profiled necks for you to choose from if you visit him, the best way of getting the guitar you want.

You need a dollop of unhurriedness, patience and unflappability to deal with Roger Borys. If you are the sort of person who demands immediate gratification, prompt replies to your email, loves chatting on the phone, uhmm, I get the sense that Roger does not do all that very well. It is best to deal with Roger in person, face to face, as that seems his preferred mode of dealing with customers. He is not very good with electronic communication. I contacted him through Messenger on Facebook.

The amount of time Roger takes to make a guitar seems to vary with each person. The guy I bought my B-120 from was kept waiting longer than he was promised, but Tony DeCaprio recently got a very specially made B-120 in a ridiculously short period of time; something like six months or so.

The longer wait time could have been due to outside forces that had nothing to do with guitar construction, such as a divorce, and then some trouble with low-life teens that were breaking into his shop, and using it as a hangout when he was in VT.

At his shop in NJ, he works SEVEN days a week, from morning till 6pm, takes no vacations, doesn't go to any guitar shows, and doesn't like being interrupted in his work.

However, he has a good relationship with Archtop.com, and advises people who want to sell their B-120s to sell them there, rather than through his shop. Also Reverb.com has everything; I just bought a Borys B222 for only $3,450- a new one is 5K.

[yebdox]

(subjective!? not on your nelly)

I understand that that must be a scottish colloquialism, but what or who is "nelly"? Enquiring minds want to know!

[grahambop]

I understand that that must be a scottish colloquialism, but what or who is "nelly"? Enquiring minds want to know!

Cockney rhyming slang:

Who is Nelly Duff? - Nelly Duff

[yebdox]

I think there was a bit in one of the Austin Powers movies that went into that; fascinating and funny. Not much like it in the states.

[HeyNow]

I'd ask myself why are you looking for high-end?

My Borys B120 is by far the nicest sounding laminate unplugged I've laid hands on. Gives carved guitars a good run. Definitely a guit that lives up to its legend.

Not an archtop, but my Collings I-35LC Deluxe amazed me when I strummed it unplugged. Really didn't expect much acoustically. A semi-hollow that can compete with hollowbodies volume-wise acoustically.

Those would be my #1 and #2 if you wanted some acoustic tone, and overall build quality. imo, nobody finishes a guitar better than Collings or Benedetto.

On the flip side, the guitar that gets that 60sjazz tone in my head (warm, smoky - humbucker + Fender Reverb) is my '78 Guild X-175. By far the cheapest hollowbody I own, beat to sh*t - cracks on the top, finish worn off the neck, cracked binding on the neck, heavy (like 8 lbs!), pretty dead acoustically, but plugged-in, it's that sound. Wet chime with bloom.

My '66 Gibson Barney Kessel - not great unplugged, on the heavier side but much lighter than the Guild - plugged-in packs a punch like no other guit. No classic jazz sound for this beast. The bridge screams w/o piercing your ears.

My '64 Guild CA-100 - carved top, laminate sides+back. Impressive unplugged, but it's still a small body sound - loud for a laminate but not big bass. BUT, it comes with a DeArmond 1100 - to me, the best pickup ever built alongside a Gibson PAF.

I love them all. My point? Horses for courses. What are you looking for?

[Guitarbean25]

Hofner has had its own light-weight laminates for over 60 years. Since the early 1950s, they have made thousands of lovely 16" archtops in Germany with 25 1/4" scale-length necks. Here's a German-built Thin President that I got a year ago, with 2" rims. It's one of seven put together by Dieter Fischer just before he retired for good, with some old-school Hofner touches not seen for many years, like a 5-piece neck, 14th fret neck/body joint, and Florentine cutaway:



Being built:

Absolutely love the white Hofner. Is the back of the neck left natural and uncolored?

[Hammertone]

Absolutely love the white Hofner. Is the back of the neck left natural and uncolored?

Yes. I think it looks great.

[jazznpool]

I couldn't be more satisfied with a recently purchased Benedetto Bravo. I ordered and owned a new Borys B120 a number of years ago--it was an excellent guitar for that time. The Bravo I have now is simply a vastly superior instrument in most respects I can recall including customer service.

[skykomishone]

I have to concur with the early 175 comments. My '55 ES175D is as good as it gets in a laminate, and I think it's high end too. All original (except new frets), the P90's are smoke'n. Just sayin.

S

[Encinitastubes]

I'd ask myself why are you looking for high-end?

My Borys B120 is by far the nicest sounding laminate unplugged I've laid hands on. Gives carved guitars a good run. Definitely a guit that lives up to its legend.

Not an archtop, but my Collings I-35LC Deluxe amazed me when I strummed it unplugged. Really didn't expect much acoustically. A semi-hollow that can compete with hollowbodies volume-wise acoustically.

Those would be my #1 and #2 if you wanted some acoustic tone, and overall build quality. imo, nobody finishes a guitar better than Collings or Benedetto.

On the flip side, the guitar that gets that 60sjazz tone in my head (warm, smoky - humbucker + Fender Reverb) is my '78 Guild X-175. By far the cheapest hollowbody I own, beat to sh*t - cracks on the top, finish worn off the neck, cracked binding on the neck, heavy (like 8 lbs!), pretty dead acoustically, but plugged-in, it's that sound. Wet chime with bloom.

My '66 Gibson Barney Kessel - not great unplugged, on the heavier side but much lighter than the Guild - plugged-in packs a punch like no other guit. No classic jazz sound for this beast. The bridge screams w/o piercing your ears.

My '64 Guild CA-100 - carved top, laminate sides+back. Impressive unplugged, but it's still a small body sound - loud for a laminate but not big bass. BUT, it comes with a DeArmond 1100 - to me, the best pickup ever built alongside a Gibson PAF.

I love them all. My point? Horses for courses. What are you looking for?

I'm a big fan of this post. I went down a lot of wrong paths listening to people tell me to buy from a certain year, with a certain type of wood, within a certain weight, with a resonant unplugged sound, etc. My best guitar has turned out to be a production model ES-175 with P-90s built in 2006. Not a particularly good sunburst, a fairly ugly top, and a bit heavy, but it's neck is perfect for me and it's sound brings a tear to the eye!

[medblues]

I am surprised that Godin 5th Avenue has not been mentioned. The one I have is high-end quality wise and definitely not low end price wise (after the pick up change etc). Most reviewers agree that the quality and consistency is top notch.

[lismer]

There are quite a few guitars to choose from and without dropping any names here is a picture of a laminate back, carved spruce top archtop that falls in the $8,000 Cdn range. One of the biggest differences I find with laminates and semi laminates, is response time. One character of some of the best handcarved models (to my ears) is immediate response, right on the leading edge of the attack vs a slight 'compression' often found in laminates that for some people is desirable depending on their natures. That said, you really do have to take them all one guitar at a time because the proof is in the pudding and the only taste buds that matter are yours!

[Greentone]

I think Emily Remler sounded GREAT on her Borys.

However, over the long haul I'd have to admit that my favorite laminated body jazz guitar sounds have consistently been the Gibson ES-175, ES-350 (late-40s version), ES-300, and the Tal Farlow models.

My absolute favorites have been 40s ES-300 or ES-350 through a Fender tube amp, and a 50s (P90) ES-175 or 60s (humbucker) ES-175 through either a Fender tube amp or a Polytone MiniBrute amp.

This is one GIANT jazz sound, for me. (The other is the carved body, 25-1/2" scale archtop into a Fender tube amp sound, a la Wes Montgomery or Kenny Burrell.)

[bananafist]

Sorry to go off slightly at a tangent, did I read somewhere that Trenier had moved to France? If its true, he's still using his old address on the website.
Enquiring minds...etc.

[daveymo]