High-end laminate options?

**Jim Soloway** · 11-23-2016, 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by kid335

I agree with Jim S and Bill C 100% about laminates having their own unique sound, different from carved tops. My Chinese food comment really was tongue in cheek.

In the context of "high end" as represented by the Linda Manzer Blue Note thread, I am basically saying that for that kind of money I would recommend buying a top tier luthier built carve top. If its not a name like Montelone, Manzer, etc, the OP would still have enough money to buy a top tier laminate archtop built by Trenier, Borys, Gibson ES175, etc. If we are representing "high end" to be the names included in this thread, then I think the question has been asked an answered. My understanding is that the OP is looking to see if there is a high end laminate market, similar to the carve top market. I think most of us are saying that there is, but the threshold is much lower.

The price threshold is undoubtedly lower if only because they are viewed by collectors more as "tool" instruments but the craft threshold in a Borys is probably equal to anything being made in the small builder collector world regardless of the price.

**QAman** · 11-23-2016, 07:46 PM

In speaking with Roger Borys today, we had a very brief , but interesting conversation about laminate plates.

Not only did Roger provide laminates to Jim D'Aquisto ( which most of us already know) , but he also sold to Linda Manzer - and I suspect that connection was made many years ago via Jim D'Aquisto's mentoring of Linda Manzer.

During my last visit to Rogers shop in May of this year, I noticed an entire wall full of CD jackets from pro's who use his laminate and carved guitars. Many of them are notables.

I consider Roger 's B120 to be high on the list of "best high end laminate built guitars"

I've played the DA electric , Trenier's electric and a B120, and they are in a class all of their own .

**Hogtown Fatty** · 11-23-2016, 08:20 PM

What's Borys' current price and wait time on the B120? Contact link on his site leads you to a page without any contact info... If anyone has an e-mail or a phone number, feel free to PM me (or post as I'm sure others would like it as well).

Originally Posted by QAman

In speaking with Roger Borys today, we had a very brief , but interesting conversation about laminate plates.

Not only did Roger provide laminates to Jim D'Aquisto ( which most of us already know) , but he also sold to Linda Manzer - and I suspect that connection was made many years ago via Jim D'Aquisto's mentoring of Linda Manzer.

During my last visit to Rogers shop in May of this year, I noticed an entire wall full of CD jackets from pro's who use his laminate and carved guitars. Many of them are notables.

I consider Roger 's B120 to be high on the list of "best high end laminate built guitars"

I've played the DA electric , Trenier's electric and a B120, and they are in a class all of their own .

**Jim Soloway** · 11-23-2016, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

What's Borys' current price and wait time on the B120? Contact link on his site leads you to a page without any contact info... If anyone has an e-mail or a phone number, feel free to PM me (or post as I'm sure others would like it as well).

I hear about 18 months but if you're going to order direct from Borys you have to be prepared for some less than stellar communication and uncertain wait times. His reputation is for building great guitars and always delivering but it's not likely to be a stress free deal. Everyone I know who owns one considered the process to be worth it though so don't let that stop you (A B120 would be right the top of my want list if I was in the market). BTW, it's good to see that your letting your musical wants drive the process. I think you're going about this in a way that is more likely to be successful than if you just went by binder prestige.

BTW, here's Pat Kelley with his Borys. He's obviously a greta player but I think this is a great sounding guitar. The music starts around the 5:56 mark.

**Chuck** · 11-23-2016, 11:04 PM

Originally Posted by QAman

.......During my last visit to Rogers shop in May of this year, I noticed an entire wall full of CD jackets from pro's who use his laminate and carved guitars. Many of them are notables......

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 03:11 AM

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

What's Borys' current price and wait time on the B120? Contact link on his site leads you to a page without any contact info... If anyone has an e-mail or a phone number, feel free to PM me (or post as I'm sure others would like it as well).

Borys Instrument LLC | Facebook

$5000 for a B120 Deluxe with TKL case. $4800 if you BYOC (Bring Your Own Case). Wait: 15 to 18 months quoted but not written in stone. It is on Borys time.

$5000 is the current quote on all of the laminated Borys guitars, I think, be it the B222 Jazz Solid, B122, 16" Jimmy Wyble or the 16" or 17" B120 Deluxe or Custom. Fancy fretboard inlays may be an upcharge. Ask him. Whatever you do, if he suggests Strawberry, ask to see it first before agreeing to it. I like his Tangerine-Lemon Burst, Iced Tea Burst, Caramel Burst, Dark Sunburst, Violin Burst and Dark Cherry Sunburst. And Natural, of course.

Standard scale length is 25". Standard rim depth is 2.75". Standard nut width is 1.75". Roger says he can make you any scale length, nut width and rim depth you desire. But the standard is what he feels works best with his B120 Deluxe. He has a selection of shaped profiled necks for you to choose from if you visit him, the best way of getting the guitar you want.

You need a dollop of unhurriedness, patience and unflappability to deal with Roger Borys. If you are the sort of person who demands immediate gratification, prompt replies to your email, loves chatting on the phone, uhmm, I get the sense that Roger does not do all that very well. It is best to deal with Roger in person, face to face, as that seems his preferred mode of dealing with customers. He is not very good with electronic communication. I contacted him through Messenger on Facebook.

**Hogtown Fatty** · 11-24-2016, 03:13 AM

Came across that, but there's no contact info or option to message on there.
Regardless, a very kind member PM'd me Rogers e-mail.

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

Borys Instrument LLC | Facebook

**destinytot** · 11-24-2016, 04:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

6-string, $7500. 7-string, $8000.

$500 for one string? (Sorry - couldn't resist! I'll get my coat.)

Happy Thanksgiving!

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 06:25 AM

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

Came across that, but there's no contact info or option to message on there.
Regardless, a very kind member PM'd me Rogers e-mail.

You'll have to sign up with Facebook before it allows you to do that. Pretty sneaky of Facebook, huh? Don't use your main email account unless you like a constant barrage of Do you know this person? Do you know that person? This person wants to be your friend. That person wants to be your friend. Did you go to the same highschool together? Did you go to the same university together? Do you remember getting STD from this one-night stand? She wants to FRIEND you NOW. Let's hook up and sing Kumbaya around the virtual campfire.

Awwww, fook off, Facebook.

**jorgemg1984** · 11-24-2016, 06:42 AM

Jabs, it's VERY easy to turn off e-mail notifications

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

Jabs, it's VERY easy to turn off e-mail notifications

I tried. I couldn't. I registered on Facebook, "deleted" my Facebook account and I am still getting notifications from Facebook even though I "deleted" the account. Facebook does not let you go...evah.

Do you know this person? Do you know that person? This person wants to be your friend...Over and over. I am sick of having to delete Facebook notifications from an account I thought I had deleted from Facebook. Time-waster. Fortunately, it is a secondary account that I hardly use.

**Max405** · 11-24-2016, 11:55 AM

The best high end laminate?
Gibson ES175. One of the best guitars period in an undefined shootout of "the best high end laminate"
67 years and counting..

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by Max405

The best high end laminate?
Gibson ES175. One of the best guitars period in an undefined shootout of "the best high end laminate"
67 years and counting..

It's funny because, IMHO, even the $21 000 Linda Manzer Blue Note has the ES-175 as its tonal gold standard.

A high-end laminate could possibly include an unmolested 1957-1960 ES-175 with original PAFs. These come in way under $10 000. But there are nary few left which have not been harvested of their PAFs, wiring harnesses, pots and Kluson tuners so that Les Paulians can play Barbie Dress My Axe. There are people who cater for this market, too. Take a figurative hammer to them, break them up for parts.

**QAman** · 11-24-2016, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

It's funny because, IMHO, even the $21 000 Linda Manzer Blue Note has the ES-175 as its tonal gold standard.

A high-end laminate could possibly include an unmolested 1957-1960 ES-175 with original PAFs. These come in way under $10 000. But there are nary few left which have not been harvested of their PAFs, wiring harnesses, pots and Kluson tuners so that Les Paulians can play Barbie Dress My Axe. There are people who cater for this market, too. Take a figurative hammer to them, break them up for parts.

I had a 1960 ES-175 double pickup I purchased from a guy about 30 years ago. He had it advertised in the local paper and I went to his basement apartment. When I arrived , first thing I did was pull one pickup for inspection and sure enough my heart was pounding . Unmolested - original solder joint PAF's . He knew nothing about what he had - it was his late Dad's guitar. He threw in the original Danelectro amp for a package price of $850. A few years later I sold it to Hap Kuffner ( Stan Jays original partner at Mandolin Brothers) for $2500. Ron DeMarino did a neck reset for $200.

Aww - those were the fun days when you could pick up great stuff.

Jabs point about harvesting the PAF's is so true - what a shame .

**Hogtown Fatty** · 11-24-2016, 12:53 PM

I was at a local guitar show a few weeks back and am super bummed I passed up on a mint condition 1959 ES-175 that was 100% original save for a pro refret. Both PAF's and all electronics fully intact. original Cali Girl Lifton case was mint as well. Had a nice chunky neck. Sounded and played great. What an idiot I am for passing up- I knew the seller, too, and was in touch after the show for a couple days about it, I just waited too long. Had the cash ready to go and everything. Could of had it for about $6k USD. Saw it a few days later up on Reverb for $14k USD! That would of ended my search. That one's gonna' hurt for a while...

**Jim Soloway** · 11-24-2016, 01:12 PM

Originally Posted by Hogtown Fatty

I was at a local guitar show a few weeks back and am super bummed I passed up on a mint condition 1959 ES-175 that was 100% original save for a pro refret. Both PAF's and all electronics fully intact. original Cali Girl Lifton case was mint as well. Had a nice chunky neck. Sounded and played great. What an idiot I am for passing up- I knew the seller, too, and was in touch after the show for a couple days about it, I just waited too long. Had the cash ready to go and everything. Could of had it for about $6k USD. Saw it a few days later up on Reverb for $14k USD! That would of ended my search. That one's gonna' hurt for a while...

Here's one way to ease the pain ... Use this community. Head over to the For Sale board and post a Want To Buy listing telling people what guitars you might be interested in. You might be shocked to find out what people here have that they're willing to sell and often at a very fair price.

**yebdox** · 11-24-2016, 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Sadowsky Jim Hall.

i have this exact same guitar. Great intonation, perfect neck, comfortable. I may yet swap pickups, though.

**JeanSut** · 11-24-2016, 01:50 PM

A couple of years ago I had the pleasure to play the Borys from
Larry Koonse. A very nice guitar! Sure one of the nicest guitars i have ever played!

**Groyniad** · 11-24-2016, 04:51 PM

how can you beat the 175 ?

and the reasons are so damn musical

it retains ultra silver-crisp sparkle whilst giving you earthy wood depths - jeezus what a guitar!

i find both clips above sound dull and lifeless compared to a good 175

e.g. BOTH of these:

am i mad or are these not obviously world beating sounds (if you like, erm, jazz)?

**Groyniad** · 11-24-2016, 05:01 PM

thanks jabber

is there any chance of some informed info about whether a 175 with paf(s) is worth the candle?

i mean that late 80's sound is even better (maybe) than the the early 60's sound.... (maybe)

i'd love to hear something on this from people who know

thanks

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 05:06 PM

Carmelo Tartamella. Great player. Wish I could hear more of his playing.

The best part about the ES-175 is that it does not have to cost a lot. In fact, agentsmith has a 1988 ES-175 for sale at this moment for $2350 or thereabouts.

Listen to that tone...

**Groyniad** · 11-24-2016, 05:12 PM

yes the 175 has re-arranged my whole conception of the price/quality relation

do you prefer the 63 or the 88 jabber?

and thank you Carmelo Tartamella - certainly some of the most helpful jazz guitar sampling vids on youtube.

**Jabberwocky** · 11-24-2016, 05:20 PM

I like the 1988 ES-175 Mahogany...just a little better.

**Groyniad** · 11-24-2016, 05:30 PM

same here - just a hair

(subjective!? not on your nelly)

**JSanta** · 11-25-2016, 09:58 AM

Originally Posted by DanielleOM

Any chance you have had a chance to compare the Bambino to the Bravo?

There's a lot about the Bravo that I love. It is the guitar that I mostly use. I now use D'addario Chrome 11 - 50 strings on it, as I found the lighter set seems to bring out perhaps a little less of the guitar's acoustic signature. I had tried 12 flats from several manufacturers. I have a little difficulty with the sound and resonance of the G notes on the 4th and 2nd string. I suppose the open 3rd string would bother me as well if I ever used it.

There's a number of Bravo video's on You Tube and believe if you listen to several of them you will hear a kind of signature sound that's common on those videos.

I’ve not had an opportunity to play a Bravo yet unfortunately. I had been playing an Eastman 7 string for a number of years, but my wrist could no longer handle the neck on that guitar. I wasn’t even looking for a new instrument, but the Bambino came up for sale at my local GC for like $2300, so I drove over there quickly. In terms of playability, nothing compares. I would prefer a bit wider nut width, but everything else just works perfectly. I’d love a Bravo, but as someone who’s audience consists of a couple of cats, I can’t justify spending that kind of money on what is essentially a toy.