Gibson's Dreaded Norlin Era

[Doctor Jeff]

You totally ignored Stevie ! ?

Ignore Stevie? Oh no, she was a rock goddess. But she didn’t play guitar in the group (that I know of).

I’ve seen them twice, once with Lindsay and once with Mike Campbell/Neil Finn. They were excellent both times. Just a superb, professional group. Great sound for both shows, even in a large auditorium.

[Woody Sound]

Attachment 94736

Danny W.

Oh man, you actually had one of the ES-Mitch's???

[Max405]

To me, Volutes dont mean a thing. In fact, because some folks are against them, the volutes make some of the best guitars stick around just a little bit longer when they are on the market. And they still end up in very happy hands.
One of my favorite guitars of all time, the 1975 Gibson Johnny Smith had a volute and plain woods. It was and still is, an incredible guitar. Still looks brand new. And of course I'll never forget, the 18" Unity that I had at my house for a weekend while I packed and shipped it for Patricks family. I put it on a stand, sat down on the couch and stared at it. Not from the front like most normal people do, but from the back. And my focus was on one of the finest features of that guitar, the volute.
Patrick, God bless your soul. Your earlier post here made me remember just how smart and sensible you were. You gave some really great advice to many of us who were just learning at the time.
Most people here don't know this, but Patrick fancied himself as more of a singer, not a guitar player. But he sure knew alot about guitars.. Thanks bro.
JD

[citizenk74]

To me, Volutes dont mean a thing. In fact, because some folks are against them, the volutes make some of the best guitars stick around just a little bit longer when they are on the market. And they still end up in very happy hands.
One of my favorite guitars of all time, the 1975 Gibson Johnny Smith had a volute and plain woods. It was and still is, an incredible guitar. Still looks brand new. And of course I'll never forget, the 18" Unity that I had at my house for a weekend while I packed and shipped it for Patricks family. I put it on a stand, sat down on the couch and stared at it. Not from the front like most normal people do, but from the back. And my focus was on one of the finest features of that guitar, the volute.
Patrick, God bless your soul. Your earlier post here made me remember just how smart and sensible you were. You gave some really great advice to many of us who were just learning at the time.
Most people here don't know this, but Patrick fancied himself as more of a singer, not a guitar player. But he sure knew alot about guitars.. Thanks bro.
JD

Here's to Patrick, and Cosmic Gumbo, and Neatomic, and all our friends who have joined that Big Jam in the sky. May their memories stay with us and enlighten our spirits!

[bluejaybill]

I'm not positive this guitar is Norlin era, I would guess it was '68-70 roughly.

It was a phenomenal guitar. At the time I wasn't playing a lot of jazz, but I sold it for the worst of reasons- I wasn't crazy about the color, and it had lacquer checking across the top. Neither would bother me today!

My first real guitar was a first year '68 LP Custom. Extremely heavy, it is a desirable expensive guitar now- but my '94 R8 blows it away.

[RobbieAG]

I had a 1976 L5CES and it was a great guitar even though the maple was pretty plain. I currently have a 1969 ES-175D, so it may be a Norlin era, or may not - right on the border. They probably hadn't made many changes by then if it is a Norlin. It has an orange label and non-embossed pickups. Prior to that I owned a 1956 ES-175D. Of the two 175s, I like the 1969 better. The 56 had a pretty bad neck bow above the 15th fret. I think it's more about comparing one guitar to another, though there may have been a higher percentage of klunkers in the Norlin era. I remember when the mahogany part of the bodies of Les Pauls were two pieces rather than one (split horizontally). That certainly indicates some cost cutting.

[John A.]

Some of the things people hate about Norlin actually happened before Norlin took over, such as skinny necks, square shouldered dreads with bad bridges, using less flamey woods and plainer finishes on many guitars, and oddball models and features. I was surfing around a little and trying to relate changes in Gibson ownership to the various complaints people have a about product changes, and I suspect the thing that really put them on the path to perdition was CMI going public and Ted McCarty leaving Gibson ca. '65/6. The Norlin takeover and conglomerate mentality accelerated the trend. But as bad stewards of the Gibson brand as they may have been, at least IMO Norlin never did anywhere near as much damage to Gibson as CBS did to Fender. For instance, when I was a teenager starting out in the late 70s, new Les Pauls were not as stunning as 50s Les Pauls, but they were still nice guitars without glaring functional defects. Strats were a much iffier proposition than that (though Teles suffered less from what I can tell). Never understood why people get so hot and bothered about volutes.

[Stringswinger]

I had a 1976 L5CES and it was a great guitar even though the maple was pretty plain. I currently have a 1969 ES-175D, so it may be a Norlin era, or may not - right on the border. They probably hadn't made many changes by then if it is a Norlin. It has an orange label and non-embossed pickups. Prior to that I owned a 1956 ES-175D. Of the two 175s, I like the 1969 better. The 56 had a pretty bad neck bow above the 15th fret. I think it's more about comparing one guitar to another, though there may have been a higher percentage of klunkers in the Norlin era. I remember when the mahogany part of the bodies of Les Pauls were two pieces rather than one (split horizontally). That certainly indicates some cost cutting.

In the Norlin era it was not a two piece Les Paul body, but rather a three piece body. There was a thin layer of Maple between the two mahogany pieces. This actually cost more to the company to make than a one piece body, but was done as an idea of reducing future finish problems.

[Jimmy Mack]

Been around guitars a long time, buying, owning, selling, and a lot of just trying them out in shops, or G. shows.
A lot of the times, I was just curious about a certain guitar/model, or amp.
So many observations, and quite a few conclusions have I made. ( Many of which were determined from a monetary / budget POV.)
Volutes: no problem, I don't even know it's there. Older instruments and great ones - had them.
Good is good , or great maybe. Dogs is dogs.
Lately, inexpensive imported guitars have been better for me than the $$$$ "classy" guitars I have bought (and then sold).
It really helps to play an instrument before purchasing. Great reputations, brand names, and online marketing don't guarantee.
And then, some require nothing in terms of changing out parts. But some, even if great, become even better with research and judicious implementation.
But ... there''s nothing like finding a great axe, that's dieing to be played, just as it is.

[tbeltrans]

Interesting thread, as many around here are.

Regarding volutes, my Citation has one. It caught me by surprise the first time I played a barre dominant F chord type (#5 if I recall) at the first fret. It didn't take long to figure out how to adjust and since then, it has not been a problem.

So, for me, volute looks cool and is not a problem.

Tony

[Danny W.]

Oh man, you actually had one of the ES-Mitch's???

The original six ES-Mitches were 2" deep and trimmed like an ES-347. Mine seemed to be an additional one that might have been custom ordered. It was standard ES-3XX depth with ES-355 appointments. Baker Rorick wrote an article for Vintage Guitar about the ES-357 that featured my photos and description of my guitar. Although it was an interesting guitar I never played it much. It had a deep neck with tiny frets, and tiny side dots for some reason. Of all the guitars I've owned only two had P-90s--I'm just a humbucker kind of guy. It did do a really good job for country or jangle kind of sounds. I owned if for five years--when we moved west it joined the many others I sold.

Here are better photos of it:





Danny W.

[John A.]

Interesting thread, as many around here are.

Regarding volutes, my Citation has one. It caught me by surprise the first time I played a barre dominant F chord type (#5 if I recall) at the first fret. It didn't take long to figure out how to adjust and since then, it has not been a problem.

So, for me, volute looks cool and is not a problem.

Tony

Ditto. My Seventy Seven has one. Doesn’t bother me a bit, and if it helps prevent a headstock break I’m happy to have it. I’m neutral about it aesthetically.

[RobbieAG]

In the Norlin era it was not a two piece Les Paul body, but rather a three piece body. There was a thin layer of Maple between the two mahogany pieces. This actually cost more to the company to make than a one piece body, but was done as an idea of reducing future finish problems.

That may be true, but the perception for most people is that they were cutting costs (at least it was for me). It's probably why the went back to one piece a few years later.

[tbeltrans]

Ditto. My Seventy Seven has one. Doesn’t bother me a bit, and if it helps prevent a headstock break I’m happy to have it. I’m neutral about it aesthetically.

Good point about possible breakage if it really does help with that. To me, the volute on the Citation looks really nice the way they did it. Are the various batches of Citation similar in design and looks (i.e. yours being a 1977 and mine being a 1995, would they look very similar other than maybe finish - sunburst vs natural)?

Tony

[John A.]

Good point about possible breakage if it really does help with that. To me, the volute on the Citation looks really nice the way they did it. Are the various batches of Citation similar in design and looks (i.e. yours being a 1977 and mine being a 1995, would they look very similar other than maybe finish - sunburst vs natural)?

Tony

Sorry, I meant Seventy Seven the brand of guitar, not ‘77 Gibson. Seventy Seven is a Japanese maker that copies some elements of Gibsons and adds their own design elements.

[tbeltrans]

Sorry, I meant Seventy Seven the brand of guitar, not ‘77 Gibson. Seventy Seven is a Japanese maker that copies some elements of Gibsons and adds their own design elements.

My mistake. I have never heard of the Seventy Seven brand of guitar and assumed you meant a Citation built in the 1970s. The Seventy Seven brand sounds interesting though. I will google to learn more.

Edit: These seem to be very nice instruments: Seventy Seven

Tony

[John A.]

M

Edit: These seem to be very nice instruments: Seventy Seven

Tony

Especially the volute

[Alter]

I have a lefty walnut 335 from the 70s, very thick neck, low frets, no volute. Sounds great live. It has been the most stable guitar I have, nothing ever happens to it, nothing moves etc..

If anything, it feels less versatile than more modern 335s, but it's maybe me, cause I've only played clean/cleanish sounds with it (over almost 25 of having it!), so it doesn't feel like home for say fusion sounds.

It sounds great for jazz and blues though. Old PAFs set low, and I put 11 rounds on it.

Sorry for the crappy photo..

[Greywolf]

I got my '79 Les Paul Custom new and have had it ever since, rock solid dependable, just HEAVY at 12lbs 9 oz.