Hand Wired Fender Clones

[gggomez]

Was able to play my Princeton 65 Re Issue side by side with a Princeton 65 hand wired clone and a Deluxe 63 Brown Face hand wired clone.

Wow they have so much more mid punch and clarity. I played a bit of Midnight Blue and "Oh Mama" I had to stop playing to wipe the drool from my mouth. Single notes really cut through and very pick sensitive, the clarity of chords and they sounded so big like it was coming out of a 12 inch Boogie Mark I with an EV.

Any one had experience with hand wired clone amps. They seem top notch, outstanding components, sound is at another level. Any reason I should not fork out my hard earned. (The price of Fender ReIssues in Australia at the moment the change over cost may not be too much).

[Little Jay]

Do the handwired clones have slight alterations to the circuit? Different speakers? Upgraded output transformers? Better tubes? That would explain why they sound different (and fortunately better to your ears).

Personally, I don't think PCB-boards sound worse or better than hand wired turret or eyelet boards, but different components make the difference.

There's a hype about expensive caps and carbon composite resistors (typically not found in production PCB-amps) but to my ears good tubes, bigger OTs and different speakers make much more of a difference. But sometimes a well choosen sum of components turns out to be magic!

I don't know the price of those clones, but I see very high prices sometimes. It can be much cheaper to buy a Silverface equivalent and upgrade some components.

Anyway, you obviously liked the amps, so they work well for you and that's a good thing!

[jorgemg1984]

Some handwired clones are not that expensive but the best option for the money is still finding a cheap silverface!

[marcwhy]

Who were the clone builders -- local Aussies, or imports?

Lots of great builders in the States, and prices vary quite a bit, from about $600 - 3000 USD for a good amp! I've heard and played fantastic models at each price point, so if you've found something you like and can afford, go for it!

[gggomez]

Yes it had up graded everything. Yes I also agree the sound is not necessarily better it is just different. My reissue is cleaner and possibly louder, I liked that the clone had more grit and more mids and the variation in sound from pick technique. This is the little monster:

Which does not really sound like what I heard. Maybe it is the 175 that makes it sound much bigger and a little angry (and my bridge pick up sounded wonderful).

[Longways to Go]

Different tubes & different speaker will certainly change the sound of an amp.

Have you guys seen that Fender is bringing out a new line of handwired tweed reproductions?
I may have to pick up a 57 champ reissue one of these days

[John A.]

I've played a silverface and a reissue next to each other. I think I heard differences, and I think I preferred the SF, but conditions weren't blind, and I don't know how reliable my perceptions were. Also, PTP/PCB is one of many slight differences in construction between the two (speakers, tubes, different transformers, age/condition of components, cabinet), so I don't think you can isolate just one of those factors as THE factor. Bottom line, both sounded great. In real world listening/playing conditions (as opposed to a sound-proof amp demo room with no one else around) the broad similarity (basic tone, headroom, distortion characteristics) outweighs the differences. I wound up with a silverface (not the one I demo'd next to RI, FWIW) because I think future reparability and trade-in value are worth a few bucks, plus since I grew up in the era of "silverface sucks" I enjoy the chuckle factor of "Vintage 1978 Fender amplifier." But to my ears and experience of original BF and SF PR's, RI's are PR's.

John

[Boston Joe]

Vox makes both PCB and Hand Wired versions of the AC-30. It would be interesting to A/B them.

My Dr. Z is hand wired, but it's not a clone of anything. (I mean, it's basically Fenderish, vaguely Voxish, but definitely its own beast).

[Sam Sherry]

Any one had experience with hand wired clone amps.

I built a Weber high-power Princeton about three years ago and a non-clone tube amp earlier this year. I'm building a two-channel high-power Princeton variant now.

Was able to play my Princeton 65 Re Issue side by side with a Princeton 65 hand wired clone and a Deluxe 63 Brown Face hand wired clone. Wow they have so much more mid punch and clarity.

Dollars to dimes what you are hearing is a different speaker. Find out what speakers your friend was using, get one and break it in and you will be able to get so close that with a band playing it won't matter.

They seem top notch, outstanding components, sound is at another level.

Some are and some aren't. Nobody sets out saying "I will use bad components" but lots of people do not shell out extra money for hand-wound Burrellium-encrusted power transformers (which promise that Burrell-y sound).

Any reason I should not fork out my hard earned.

If you like that sound of a 5E3 think about building a kit. It takes time but there are plenty of 5E3 instructions available online. You don't need to be able to engineer one to assemble one -- think of all those factory-workers building on the factory lines! And GG, there is no feeling like playing an amp you built. It's like doing the greatest jigsaw puzzle in the world and then you have an amp!

There's a hype about expensive caps and carbon composite resistors (typically not found in production PCB-amps) but to my ears good tubes, bigger OTs and different speakers make much more of a difference.

Spot on as usual, Jay. I believe that resistors and capacitors have electrical value, not acoustical tone. (Those are fightin' words on some sites.) To me, any distinction between NOS tubes and modern glass vanishes once the drummer kicks in. And triple that for clean, jazz-style playing: A lot of those alleged differences are about how amps distort, which is not where we live at JGF.

[SamBooka]

Different tubes & different speaker will certainly change the sound of an amp.

Have you guys seen that Fender is bringing out a new line of handwired tweed reproductions?
I may have to pick up a 57 champ reissue one of these days

I know.. mystique.. mojo.. resale value etc etc but I have a hard time paying 1000$ for an amp that I have built from scratch for under 150$

[vernon]

I've owned/played three Fender pcb production line amps: Hot Rod Deluxe, Pro Junior, and a Champion 600. I bought a ptp Alessandro Rottweiler 40 watt 6L6 1x12 combo... built a 57 5f1 Champ... and had Tim Marcus (Milkman sound) build me a 40 watt 6L6 head. The pcb amps sounded fine (with some speaker/tube upgrades)... but the ptp amps seemed to me to have better touch sensitivity and more depth (3 dimensionality) to the sound. I sold all the Fenders and the Alessandro, but have held onto the 5f1 and the Milkman. They sound and play better in my experience. Just my personal opinion.

[MaxTwang]

Boutique hardwired amps tend to use really good transformers.

I have a '65 reissue Princeton with a Weber speaker and an early 70's stock Silverface and both sound great. I've built and modded amps and from my experience the best upgrades are speaker and output transformer. I've done various mods to a few Epiphone Valve Jr's and without a doubt installing Mercury Magnetics transformers was the single best mod: Changed a Valve Jr from a $99 budget amp to a boutique amp killer!

When I get some time I'll be upgrading my '65 reissue Princeton to a Mercury Magnetics output transformer.

In addition to Mercury Magnetics take a look at what's available in your country. Herboer transformers are great US made, but there might be some alternatives for less $$$ from your part of the world.

[Longways to Go]

I know.. mystique.. mojo.. resale value etc etc but I have a hard time paying 1000$ for an amp that I have built from scratch for under 150$

Cool that you know how to do that. I tried the M.O.D. DIY 5 watt kit, but I didn't end up with a good result. My soldering skills are OK, but my electrical diagnostic skills are non-existent!.. The build experience ended up being more stressful than fun for me. At this point I'd rather take a hit to the pocket book!

[Cunamara]

If you like that sound of a 5E3 think about building a kit. It takes time but there are plenty of 5E3 instructions available online. You don't need to be able to engineer one to assemble one -- think of all those factory-workers building on the factory lines! And GG, there is no feeling like playing an amp you built. It's like doing the greatest jigsaw puzzle in the world and then you have an amp!

Agreed. I built a Mission Amps 5E3 kit- my first and thus far only amp kit. I am delighted with the results. Took me about a week of a couple hours in the evenings.

[robertoart]

Yes it had up graded everything. Yes I also agree the sound is not necessarily better it is just different. My reissue is cleaner and possibly louder, I liked that the clone had more grit and more mids and the variation in sound from pick technique. This is the little monster:

Which does not really sound like what I heard. Maybe it is the 175 that makes it sound much bigger and a little angry (and my bridge pick up sounded wonderful).

Is that the place on the corner of Johnson St and Hoddle? I was thinking about checking that shop out. I have a Mesa Mark iiC. It's beautiful, however causing me problems with a Blues situation. It's hard to get the sound I need at lower volume. Am thinking of adding a smaller lighter amp. Might check this out. Geoff Achison is playing in this clip.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I've done various mods to a few Epiphone Valve Jr's and without a doubt installing Mercury Magnetics transformers was the single best mod: Changed a Valve Jr from a $99 budget amp to a boutique amp killer!

You have my undivided attention. Is this a difficult mod? I shouldn't think so, but I don't don't know enough to even know what I don't know.

I like my VJ at medium volumes for jazz and blues, but the limited headroom means I can't crank it for those styles, while when I'm playing rock and have the amp wide-open, the distortion is too "toothy". Would this mod of yours address either of these issues?

[MaxTwang]

You have my undivided attention. Is this a difficult mod? I shouldn't think so, but I don't don't know enough to even know what I don't know.

I like my VJ at medium volumes for jazz and blues, but the limited headroom means I can't crank it for those styles, while when I'm playing rock and have the amp wide-open, the distortion is too "toothy". Would this mod of yours address either of these issues?

Here's some links. The kit was well documented and should be doable if you have moderate soldering skills. I really like the modded Valve Jr with the EL-84 and 6V6 in tandem. There's a bit more headroom and the distortion is more usable.

At $290 the kit costs significantly more than the amp but the transformers are top of the line boutique gear.


Mercury Magnetics

Legendary Tones - Epiphone Valve Junior Mod

Mercury Magnetics

[Thumpalumpacus]

Thanks for the info. I'll have to bone up on my rusty soldering if that's involved ... but as you said, it's a $99 amp, I'm game to use it as a learning scaffold. I'll probably change out my speaker first, though -- it's a scavenged Peavey Greenback copy, and I'm thinking I'll get more payoff for less $$ there.

Thanks again, Max!

[gggomez]

Robert, Miles Audio is in Brighton East (in a house).

The shop in Collingwood has closed to open new larger premises, not opened yet, he stocked Archillies Amps which are from Endeavour Hills, not sure where that suburb is. I am keen to check out their Tweed Deluxe clones (although the Brown Face clone I tried had too many mids for me today, 10 years ago would have bought it, it just wanted to be turned up really loud and bang out some something sweet, Brown Sugar of course. Sorry.

The Princeton seemed to sit in a wonderful place, more mids than the Fender reissues but not as much as a brown face. I understand a tweed will be even more mid focused.

[whiskey02]

Sam Sherry,

While not perhaps setting out to use bad components, corporations like Fender do specifically choose among the cheapest most cost cutting componements they can find.

If you look at the price of a hand wired ptp Fender amp in 1964 and adjust for inflation you'll see that many boutique clones are not expensive at all.

[Greentone]

I have made a LOT of hand-wired recreations of Fender amps over a many-year period of time. Here are some observations:

(1) The cost of materials is typically a lot more than $150. (I have never built an amp where the cost of materials was anywhere near $150.)

(2) Over a long period of time, my observations suggest that with comparable materials PC-board amps will sound about like hand-wired amps. Folks won't want to believe this, but I have done too may side-by-side comparisons to be able to fool myself.

(3) Materials in hand-wired amps are not usually the same as what is in the production, PC-based amps. Most of the hand-made stuff is many times better. Frequently, not always, this results in an amp that you would choose over the PC-board amp. Sometimes, you would like the PC amp better.

(4) Hand-wired amps, done correctly, are much more robust--when you get ready to go back in and modify things--than PC-based amps are. It is patently more difficult to work on PC-board amps, which is why most repairs to them involves replacing entire boards.

(5) Speakers, speakers, speakers, speakers, speakers. Everything in an amp matters, but speakers matter the most. Nothing alters the sound of an amp like speakers.

[GNAPPI]

I've been working on tube amps a L-O-N-G time and the benefits and disadvantages of both I think are unclear to most.

IMO, there's no mojo or magic to handwired amps, like git head shapes, fretboard material etc. lots of unnecessary weight to sound is between the ears.

The benefits / disadvantages to both are:

Reliability.

PCB's can and do crack, solder joints around components fail, as well as connectors. PTP wiring suffers rarely from this.

PCB's are totally consistant, no variation or separation between signal paths to influence or scavenge unwanted noise or signals IF the boards "bond out" clearances are well placed AND the appropriate number of layers are used for signal, ground and power are there. Layered boards cost more and are likely to be designed for cost rather than quality.

PCB's IMO are generally well marked with silk screening and are faster to locate components making repairs faster AND upgrade if needed over PTP.

Vintage PTP amps have a MAJOR problem in the wiring itself. The fabric can and does turn to dust making a potentially dangerous situation possible for anyone opening the cabinet.

Overall I see PCB design as superior.

[Boston Joe]

Vintage PTP amps have a MAJOR problem in the wiring itself. The fabric can and does turn to dust making a potentially dangerous situation possible for anyone opening the cabinet.

But modern PTP amps, using wires with plastic/vinyl/whatever insulation wouldn't have this problem, correct? (Thinking about my Z here...)

[GNAPPI]

Mostly correct, but almost all plastic wires degrade at some rate. How fast and how severely depends on insulation quality and working / storage conditions.

Generally quality vintage and modern wiring have very long life on the order of several decades. The good news is some other user down the road will have to worry about it.l, the bad news is replacing PTP is expensive.

[GNAPPI]

OH, ps... vermin like roaches and rats prefer nibbling on modern wires. I have not seen cotton wire eaten.