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I'm not a great housekeeper, but at least I don't have THOSE problems.
Originally Posted by GNAPPI
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09-21-2016 11:18 AM
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Threads like this make me feel smarter. Thanks guys and gals.
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These days the big costs in building your own amp are cabinet, transformers, tubes and speaker. Capacitors and resistors are cheap. Unless you enjoy woodwork & finishing/covering you have to buy a cabinet, and if you don't like bending and punching metal you have to buy a chassis.
Populating the board, whether PCB, turret or eyelet, is fairly easy; wiring up pots and tube sockets is tedious and time consuming.
All added up the price of boutique amps reflect the costs of time & materials to build these amps in small quantities.
That said, building your own amps can be educational and enjoyable (did I just say that)? But you'll never get your money out of your projects.Last edited by MaxTwang; 09-21-2016 at 01:47 PM.
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I discovered this principle when I learned to homebrew beer. When you total up the cost of the ingredients it ends up being just slightly cheaper, but that doesn't include labor, equipment, and distribution costs. Unless it's something you're doing for enjoyment and/or education, it's not really worth it. (I did it for enjoyment. Then I stopped drinking. Anybody want to buy some homebrewing gear?) Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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PCB vs PTP the ongoing drama! Unfortunately it can be hard to tell since so many PCB amps are "cost effective" units. If executed with the same quality, care and thoughtfulness, I feel the PCB is superior. If you have ever built an amp yourself, you know just how much the slight change of a wire's position can affect the noise level and sound pretty drastically. PCB has the ability to optimize this placement and result in a better sound over all and better consistency over the years. EDIT: actually I can debate this statement myself. PCB wire placement can only happen on a single plane while PTP wiring has more "wiggle room" for better or for worse. Unfortunately, many PCB designs don't have the quality of speakers, tubes, transformers and cabinets compared to their booteek PTP counterparts.
All that said, my Vintage Sound 22sc is the finest amp I have heard in decades and worth every single penny I spent on it! I don't need a lot of amps, in fact one awesome one is plenty! However, my PRRI sounds great and has a slightly lower noise level but suffers from certain "cut corners" compared to the no holding back build of the Vintage Sound.
Either way great guitar + great amp = happy Ken!
Last edited by Ken Olmstead; 09-21-2016 at 02:06 PM.
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I agree with GNAPPI about the comparative merits of PCB vs PTP. PCB can be rock solid--witness Dan Reeves' designs with HiWatt amps. Those amps were built to guided missile specs, basically. Still, most of today's FMV amps aren't built to that standard. You need to be nimble in order to do board-level work on a Fender or Marshall without lifting the traces...although in most instances in which I've been the second guy in, I suspect that Joe Sixpack used a soldering "gun" and roached out his PC board.
GNAPPI is on the money about wiring. I have seen Hammond organ wiring harnesses that are total electrocution devices--the insulation is completely moth dust. It's true, however, that Teflon lined, vintage looking wiring will last a long time before it gets to that state.
Most musical instrument amps are so dead simple that PTP wiring is no big deal. You aren't going to end up with a rat's nest that (a) is unfathomable, or (b) is a recipe for problems with oscillation. That's not true by the time you get to a "quadro-turbo-blammo-mesa-vibro-floozy" amp. Some of the triple gain stage amps with five shaving blades are pretty sensitive to layout.
My advice: keep it simple. Get a 5f10 Harvard, or a 5e3 Deluxe, or maybe a 5f6a Bassman. Those amps all sound deevine. Need some wiggle? Get a 5f11 Vibrolux.
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PCB wire placement can only happen on a single plane
Actually that's not correct. Components can easily be mounted on top and bottom of a PCB now that we are not stuck with wave soldering. Also multi signal and power planes can be easily designed to mimimize noise, cost is the only factor making some pcb designs suck.
In the business we refer to pcb's as something like... 2s2p for two signal, two power (DC & gnd) layers. The boards with more power and signal layers get more expensive. Guys like Peavey take PCB designs to a new level of lunacy with multi pcb's connected with horrid ribbon cables and 100 mil connectors.
Take Fender and Marshall, many of their designs use pcb mounted pots (not wired) then the shaft is screwed to the face plate making that a most problem prone area.
Since everything is made in Asia for the most part, hand wiring pots, switches and tube sockets is a small penalty in cost but a HUGE dividend in reliability.
Oh well ultimately the buyer sets the standards by buying the less expensive solution in large quantity.
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Quote of the day/month/year!!! Originally Posted by Greentone
If mil-spec PCB is good enough to carry humans into space then it should be good enough for a guitar amp circuit.
Mesa has been using PCB's for a long, long time and makes very reliable amps with reasonably low noise for high-gain amps.
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The key to succes for PCB is not to mount the pots and tube feet on it and make the traces a little thicker.
This is the PCB of my late 60ies or early 70ies Guaytone Twin Reverb-clone. Needless to say I never had any troubles with that:
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Ants can be a problem, even if your house is clean. They've made their way into electrical outlets in my house. It's a dilemma - ants keep termites away, so it's good to have them around, but they have to be kept outside, and that's difficult if not impossible.OH, ps... vermin like roaches and rats prefer nibbling on modern wires. I have not seen cotton wire eaten.
Ants and Electrical Equipment - eXtension
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Thanks Mark, that's good to know. And yeah, Brown Sugar...the old rocker never dies hey... Originally Posted by gggomez
And Endeavour Hills is right next to Dandenong. Only about 25 minutes up the Monash Freeway from the city.
Really interesting thread, lots of good info.
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Yeah. Board mounted sockets just don't seem like a good idea. (From a reliability POV. I'm sure from a cost-saving POV, they're a great idea.) Originally Posted by Little Jay
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On cost.
Recommended retail for a Princeton RI in Australia is $2200 a hand wired clone $2,000.
A Tweed Deluxe Fender RI $3,000 to $4000 clone $1,800 to $2,000.
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Dang! Are those $AUS? I see on Reverb.com that a PRRI can go for $US 750. Originally Posted by gggomez
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That Guyatone looks very well made.
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There's actually a thread on the Gearpage where somebody switched out the eyelet board of a Fender Twin for a DIY copy of a Guyatone PCB! Originally Posted by Greentone
*edit: it's the Seymour Duncan forum: http://www.seymourduncan.com/forum/s...b-(lotsa-pics)
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