Heritage Sweet 16

**Jabberwocky** · 07-06-2016, 05:05 PM

PSA: Heritage Sweet 16 Archtop Guitar ? Guitar Gallery

Perhaps I have the objective perspicacity of being an insider. We'll just leave it at that.

**silverfoxx** · 07-06-2016, 05:31 PM

339 in june

Without wishing to be pedantic, i mentioned the UK ,not Europe, I have no wish
to slap across the Channel, fight my way through the immigrants to view a
guitar. Notwithstanding I have served in our armed services ..
It would infinitely easier if there were a presence here, that is all I suggested
with no intention of starting a fair simulation of World War 3 here.
I also happen to agree with Franz that the remarks were unnecessary and
disrespectful , I like a joke as much as anyone but not insults.

**silverfoxx** · 07-06-2016, 05:34 PM

Originally Posted by Franz 1997

No, just saying what I think. Shame Rene/ Jabberwocky hasn't responded.

What has got right under my skin are these Brexit comments. To give some context, you need to realise that 'Brexit' has
stirred some deep divisions in this country, and crass comments like 'Council Yobs' aren't welcome.

To the 'get a life comment', you're right about one thing. Time I baled out.

+1 to that , I too am out.

Silverfoxx

**MarkRhodes** · 07-06-2016, 05:38 PM

Well, well, what have we here?

How about this.
Let's play a game called As If.
Here's how to play: post to this thread below As If the upsetting ones above (-whichever ones you find upsetting) had not been made.

Meanwhile, let me deal with the "ill wind" blowing hereabouts.

**339 in june** · 07-07-2016, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by silverfoxx

339 in june

Without wishing to be pedantic, i mentioned the UK ,not Europe, I have no wish
to slap across the Channel, fight my way through the immigrants to view a
guitar. Notwithstanding I have served in our armed services ..
It would infinitely easier if there were a presence here, that is all I suggested
with no intention of starting a fair simulation of World War 3 here.
I also happen to agree with Franz that the remarks were unnecessary and
disrespectful , I like a joke as much as anyone but not insults.

I fully agree with you about the lack of representation of Heritage Guitars in Europe AND in the UK.
I just wanted to mention that Thomann has some in stock, that they can ship outside Germany AND Europe (thus, to UK

) and that you can buy on line as they have a convenient return policy. You'll not have to go through rows of immigrants to get a very nice guitar. (At least, me and my family survived when we came to visit London last Apriland I took this opportunity to spend some time in Ivor Mairant's, but that is another story...)
And as cleverly mentioned by 2B, let's be patient and see what the new owners have in plan.

**339 in june** · 07-07-2016, 11:07 AM

And this, in UK :
Heritage Sweet Sixteen - £3000 - Modern Guitars

Maybe there's room for a bit of negotiation ?

**Wildcat** · 07-07-2016, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

Well, well, what have we here?

How about this.
Let's play a game called As If.
Here's how to play: post to this thread below As If the upsetting ones above (-whichever ones you find upsetting) had not been made.

Meanwhile, let me deal with the "ill wind" blowing hereabouts.

Mark,
I hate to see these gentlemen leave. I apologize for my reactionary posts. I should not like my personal ignorance to what these folks are experiencing or feel taint what I wrote. I sincerely hope they reconsider leaving.

**helios** · 07-07-2016, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

PSA: Heritage Sweet 16 Archtop Guitar ? Guitar Gallery

Perhaps I have the objective perspicacity of being an insider. We'll just leave it at that.

Jabber is the wise man who masquerades as the fool. Like a Bogart, beneath the hard-boiled exterior, there is fluff on the inside!

**MarkRhodes** · 07-07-2016, 05:10 PM

Originally Posted by Wildcat

Mark,
I hate to see these gentlemen leave. I apologize for my reactionary posts. I should not like my personal ignorance to what these folks are experiencing or feel taint what I wrote. I sincerely hope they reconsider leaving.

Well, we each have our own experiences and feelings. No one is obligated to know what it is like to be anyone else, let alone everyone else! Though this is why so many people here wish that political topics were avoided---they so often bring an end to polite conversation.

**Herbie** · 07-07-2016, 06:34 PM

So Sweet 16 is great and not like ES175, but in which way it does not sound like ES175? I understand that longer scale gives it something, more punch, sound and sustain, but what else?

I have never wondered why Heritage has had no presence in the Old Continent, it is not the only company that seems to think that US is the whole world. And sometimes they might be right, especially in jazz guitar market the business in the Europe might just not be worth of the nuisance.

And look at the patriotic content in Heritage guitars like Super Eagle and so on. Jazz guitarists are seldom from the most patriotic tenth of the people but playing so AMERICAN guitars could make some European guitarist to think about nationalities too much.

I think that Sweet 16 or KB Groovemaster would be great guitars but never seen on on sale here in EU. Maybe I am starting to get used to the headstock.

**Greentone** · 07-07-2016, 06:49 PM

The Heritage Sweet 16 sounds different principally because it is a carved body instrument--and because it has the longer scale. Also, it has a shallower depth, i.e., 3" versus 3-3/8" (Gibson listed them at 3-1/2", but I think this was generous.) The different body dimensions and the laminated construction of the ES-175 make it a different sounding guitar from the Sweet 16.

The more apt comparison is between the Sweet 16 and the Gibson L-4C, which has the same body dimensions as the 175, but is a carved top and back instrument. If you have played carved body instruments you will know what I mean. They have a more distinctly "chewy" as opposed to "thunky" sounding sound signature. Think Johnny Smith instead of Tal Farlow or Joe Pass.

I played both the 175 _and_ a carved body, 16" Gibson L-50 with a DeArmond floating pickup for 35 years--at the same point in time. The guitars each produced excellent jazz sounds. The ES-175 immediately produced the sound of 50s/60s bebop anytime I plugged it into an Ampeg or Polytone amp--boom! The L-50/DeArmond sounded more upscale--more of a parlor jazz guitar. Think "The Maid With the Flaxen Hair" done as a delicate chord melody for a small, intimate audience--not that the L-50 couldn't crank out 4-to-the-bar 'comp chords.

The Sweet 16, IMO, is more of a chord melody instrument--that can cover the 175 waterfront as needed. The 175 is a plug in and run the bebop lines guitar.

I still dearly love both carved and laminated archtop guitars and keep both on hand. These days, though, I prefer 25-1/5" scale instruments.

**lawson-stone** · 07-07-2016, 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Herbie

So Sweet 16 is great and not like ES175, but in which way it does not sound like ES175? I understand that longer scale gives it something, more punch, sound and sustain, but what else?

I have never wondered why Heritage has had no presence in the Old Continent, it is not the only company that seems to think that US is the whole world. And sometimes they might be right, especially in jazz guitar market the business in the Europe might just not be worth of the nuisance.

And look at the patriotic content in Heritage guitars like Super Eagle and so on. Jazz guitarists are seldom from the most patriotic tenth of the people but playing so AMERICAN guitars could make some European guitarist to think about nationalities too much.

I think that Sweet 16 or KB Groovemaster would be great guitars but never seen on on sale here in EU. Maybe I am starting to get used to the headstock.

I doubt that Heritage "think[s] that US is the whole world." It's massive undertaking to market a product in another country. Heritage is not a large company at all. It's a small group of people who are mainly artisans and craft masters, who focus on building the finest guitars they can. Marketing and selling world-wide is quite complicated and it gets harder and harder for small companies to do that successfully.

Also, Heritage is not owned by some gigantic global conglomerate that has build-in, ready-made channels of distribution and sales. They don't have the backing of billionaire boards of directors, high-dollar stock holders and political insiders greasing the wheels for them.

They are a bunch of guitar makers who have a few folks to take orders, collect money and pay salaries.

So don't make unkind assumptions about why they are not marketing in a big way outside the US: they don't have the resources for it.

Funny... people claim they hate these huge global conglomerates, and whine about why we no longer have these small companies that focus on craft and artisanship, then when one comes along, we criticize it for ... not acting like a huge global conglomerate...

**Herbie** · 07-07-2016, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

The Heritage Sweet 16 sounds different principally because it is a carved body instrument--and because it has the longer scale. Also, it has a shallower depth, i.e., 3" versus 3-3/8" (Gibson listed them at 3-1/2", but I think this was generous.) The different body dimensions and the laminated construction of the ES-175 make it a different sounding guitar from the Sweet 16.

The more apt comparison is between the Sweet 16 and the Gibson L-4C, which has the same body dimensions as the 175, but is a carved top and back instrument. If you have played carved body instruments you will know what I mean. They have a more distinctly "chewy" as opposed to "thunky" sounding sound signature. Think Johnny Smith instead of Tal Farlow or Joe Pass.

I played both the 175 _and_ a carved body, 16" Gibson L-50 with a DeArmond floating pickup for 35 years--at the same point in time. The guitars each produced excellent jazz sounds. The ES-175 immediately produced the sound of 50s/60s bebop anytime I plugged it into an Ampeg or Polytone amp--boom! The L-50/DeArmond sounded more upscale--more of a parlor jazz guitar. Think "The Maid With the Flaxen Hair" done as a delicate chord melody for a small, intimate audience--not that the L-50 couldn't crank out 4-to-the-bar 'comp chords.

The Sweet 16, IMO, is more of a chord melody instrument--that can cover the 175 waterfront as needed. The 175 is a plug in and run the bebop lines guitar.

I still dearly love both carved and laminated archtop guitars and keep both on hand. These days, though, I prefer 25-1/5" scale instruments.

Wow! Thanks for the great information!

**Herbie** · 07-07-2016, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

I doubt that Heritage "think[s] that US is the whole world." It's massive undertaking to market a product in another country. Heritage is not a large company at all. It's a small group of people who are mainly artisans and craft masters, who focus on building the finest guitars they can. Marketing and selling world-wide is quite complicated and it gets harder and harder for small companies to do that successfully.

Also, Heritage is not owned by some gigantic global conglomerate that has build-in, ready-made channels of distribution and sales. They don't have the backing of billionaire boards of directors, high-dollar stock holders and political insiders greasing the wheels for them.

They are a bunch of guitar makers who have a few folks to take orders, collect money and pay salaries.

So don't make unkind assumptions about why they are not marketing in a big way outside the US: they don't have the resources for it.

Funny... people claim they hate these huge global conglomerates, and whine about why we no longer have these small companies that focus on craft and artisanship, then when one comes along, we criticize it for ... not acting like a huge global conglomerate...

Great analysis, Lawson. And I suppose there would have been contacts from shops in EU if the interest in Heritages were worth the struggle. Let's see how the new owners sees the situation.

**A440** · 07-08-2016, 08:57 AM

I've mentioned this recently in another post, but I bought a Heritage 535 brand new from a dealer here in the UK. It was in 2010, so I don't know if they still have their contacts with Heritage, and their website is down for maintenance at the moment:
The High End Guitar Company

**Chuck** · 07-08-2016, 09:28 AM

Heritage 575 ___

Sweet 16 ___

**Greentone** · 07-08-2016, 10:16 AM

Jack Zucker's Sweet 16 (I believe he has since sold it) sounds great in the clip above. It gets the sound that I was describing about a 16" carved body archtop with a floating pickup. (Jack replaced the pickup on that example.)

Mimi Fox, of course, is an astounding guitarist. Her laminated body Heritage is a direct descendant to the ES-175, albeit with a 25-1/5" scale. Notice that the sound--though clearly still an archtop guitar--is more directly string to pickup, with less influence by the body of the guitar. That's also the way my ES-175 reacted to my playing--an immediate thunk or pop, followed by a smooth decay of the note. For 35 years, I was addicted to this sound. Why not? I was primarily playing in small jazz combos.

Now, I play as a solo gig, or with either a second guitar, or a piano, or just a bass. In these settings I like the sound that a carved body instrument provides. I am providing more of a lap piano function, to borrow the phrase that I believe George Van Eps coined. In a solo or duo setting I like the more delicate, sinewy response of the carved body guitar. This isn't to say that a carved guitar isn't authoritative--listen to the mighty L-5CES...bam!

My advice is buy one, but plan on eventually having both. That's what most of us here at Jazz Guitar Online end up doing...and a solid body, too.

**Stringswinger** · 07-08-2016, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Jack Zucker's Sweet 16 (I believe he has since sold it) sounds great in the clip above. It gets the sound that I was describing about a 16" carved body archtop with a floating pickup. (Jack replaced the pickup on that example.)

Mimi Fox, of course, is an astounding guitarist. Her laminated body Heritage is a direct descendant to the ES-175, albeit with a 25-1/5" scale. Notice that the sound--though clearly still an archtop guitar--is more directly string to pickup, with less influence by the body of the guitar. That's also the way my ES-175 reacted to my playing--an immediate thunk or pop, followed by a smooth decay of the note. For 35 years, I was addicted to this sound. Why not? I was primarily playing in small jazz combos.

Now, I play as a solo gig, or with either a second guitar, or a piano, or just a bass. In these settings I like the sound that a carved body instrument provides. I am providing more of a lap piano function, to borrow the phrase that I believe George Van Eps coined. In a solo or duo setting I like the more delicate, sinewy response of the carved body guitar. This isn't to say that a carved guitar isn't authoritative--listen to the mighty L-5CES...bam!

My advice is buy one, but plan on eventually having both. That's what most of us here at Jazz Guitar Online end up doing...and a solid body, too.

Greentone,

Mimi is a friend of mine (we have done a few gigs together) and I have played her guitar. It is a carved, solid wood guitar with a 24 3/4 scale. Essentially it is a Heritage version of the Gibson L-4CES. Back when she and I played together, she was using an AER Compact 60 amp .

**Greentone** · 07-08-2016, 11:47 AM

Stringswinger:

I stand corrected. A Heritage L-4, eh? That would make it a short-scale Sweet-16. Sweet. Sounds different, to me, than the sound of Zucker's guitar. I suspect it's a floating pickup v set in pickup thing.

One thing is sure: Mimi Fox is an incredibly good musician and guitarist.

**Bluedawg** · 07-08-2016, 11:51 AM

Yeah

What Greentone said

The 175 and Sweet 16 are both great guitars and both are worth having

The 175 gets the classic laminate sound .... Metheny, Joe Pass, Herb Ellis, etc.

The Sweet 16 will get you closer to Johnny Smith or Wes Montgomery tone depending on whether it has a floater or a mounted pickup

**Bluedawg** · 07-08-2016, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Greentone,

Mimi is a friend of mine (we have done a few gigs together) and I have played her guitar. It is a carved, solid wood guitar with a 24 3/4 scale. Essentially it is a Heritage version of the Gibson L-4CES. Back when she and I played together, she was using an AER Compact 60 amp .

She sounds great!