Godin or Peerless?

**Llewellen** · 06-21-2016, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I've owned both a Peerless (a 16" Cremona) and I currently own a Godin (Kingpin 5th Avenue ii). There's no question that the Peerless is a more elegantly crafted guitar but I'm not sure I'd describe it as a better instrument. Both companies make a lot of concessions to efficient modern construction methods. Godin makes no effort to hide their industrial roots whereas Peerless does take some measures to cosmetically hide those roots but that doesn't mean that the Peerless either plays better or sounds better. The Godin has its own sound and it's probably not the right sound for everyone but for some people it works very, very well. The guitar has an incredibly light weight construction and it has a VERY lively voice. I've been playing mine all day doing some test recordings with it and it's been a really fun day.

Thank you Jim. Your comment is extremely helpful. Someone once said that trying to talk about music is like trying to sing about football. It can't be made to compute. So instead, I offer this link to Joe Pass playing "When You Wish". If I could achieve this tone, I would think I had died and gone to heaven. I realize that so much of it comes from his hands and fingers on the instrument, but that's my holy guitar grail. The deep resonance of the big archtop body, yet some wirey sound of the strings mixed in (I'm guessing he's using round wounds here).

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 12:03 AM

Check out Gray Sargent with Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga. Like I said, it's a pretty cool sounding guitar in the right hands and this is probably the biggest gig you can get playing an archtop.

**Jehu** · 06-22-2016, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Check out Gray Sargent with Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga.

Wow, that sounds incredible. We don't have any indication of what amp he's playing through, do we?

**lawson-stone** · 06-22-2016, 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Llewellen

Thank you Jim. Your comment is extremely helpful. Someone once said that trying to talk about music is like trying to sing about football. It can't be made to compute. So instead, I offer this link to Joe Pass playing "When You Wish". If I could achieve this tone, I would think I had died and gone to heaven. I realize that so much of it comes from his hands and fingers on the instrument, but that's my holy guitar grail. The deep resonance of the big archtop body, yet some wirey sound of the strings mixed in (I'm guessing he's using round wounds here).

No mystery here. Joe plays his Ibanez JP20 through a Polytone amp. I seriously doubt he's using round wound strings, probably a standard .12 flat wound set.

The rest is... Joe Pass!

-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

**lawson-stone** · 06-22-2016, 12:24 AM

Joe's guitar here is a laminate, 17" archtop, 3" deep, with a 24.5" scale. The pickup is set back from the e d of the fingerboard a bit.

You can approach this sound generally with several instruments. My Epiphone Broadway comes close as I play my lame lines-but with lovely tone! The Peerless Monarch with the set-in pickup would also come close.

Maybe even the Epiphone Joe Pass Emperor II.

-Lawson
"Behavior that's admired is the path to power among peoples everywhere."-Beowulf

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 12:28 AM

I don't want to nit pick but I believe that's the Ibanez JP20 which has a 25.5" scale length and the video shows a Musicman amp, not his Polytone.

**Llewellen** · 06-22-2016, 01:21 AM

Thanks Lawson for the suggestions. I'll track them down and see what turns up on youtube to compare with. Here's another example of that combination of body resonance and string wire sound that I find so compelling. Pass playing "Beautiful Love":

**Llewellen** · 06-22-2016, 01:26 AM

Thanks for the link Jim. There is no doubt that the Godin has a wonderful tone but, with its mounted twin pickups (P90s??) it's a very different sound than the Pass sound in the two clips I have linked. Not better or worse, just different - a matter of taste and preference.

**jbucklin** · 06-22-2016, 10:12 AM

The Godin sounds great in the hands of Gray!
And Lady Gaga! I wish she would put out an album with that rhythm section. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Of course Tony B. sounds great as always.

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Check out Gray Sargent with Tony Bennett and Lady Gaga. Like I said, it's a pretty cool sounding guitar in the right hands and this is probably the biggest gig you can get playing an archtop.

**mr. beaumont** · 06-22-2016, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by Llewellen

Thanks for the link Jim. There is no doubt that the Godin has a wonderful tone but, with its mounted twin pickups (P90s??) it's a very different sound than the Pass sound in the two clips I have linked. Not better or worse, just different - a matter of taste and preference.

Actually, Pass' tone is quite bright there, I think you could get that with a P90.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Actually, Pass' tone is quite bright there, I think you could get that with a P90.

I think Pass's tone in that vid is also very uncharacteristic for him (I was going to say very un-Pass-like but that was too much of a mouthful). I suspect that the Musicman amp has a lot to do with that.

**Llewellen** · 06-22-2016, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I think Pass's tone in that vid is also very uncharacteristic for him (I was going to say very un-Pass-like but that was too much of a mouthful). I suspect that the Musicman amp has a lot to do with that.

I"m not sure that's true. His tone on the other vid I posted (When You Wish) is very similar, perhaps not quite as bright, but still very similar. That said, I do agree that the tone he gets on many other recordings is not as bright.

Anyway, the point is that in both of these vids I posted I hear a combination of string wire sound and body resonance that I find very attractive and would very much like to reproduce (realizing that my technique will never be like that of Joe Pass so my ears will precede my fingers

)

**mr. beaumont** · 06-22-2016, 10:52 AM

Joe played with some fantastic and some awful tones in his career. The only thing consistent was his high level of playing.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 10:55 AM

Originally Posted by Llewellen

I"m not sure that's true. His tone on the other vid I posted (When You Wish) is very similar, perhaps not quite as bright, but still very similar. That said, I do agree that the tone he gets on many other recordings is not as bright.

Anyway, the point is that in both of these vids I posted I hear a combination of string wire sound and body resonance that I find very attractive and would very much like to reproduce (realizing that my technique will never be like that of Joe Pass so my ears will precede my fingers

)

Both of those videos were also played on the Ibanez JP20. The 25.5" scale length, maple neck, ebony board and pickup position would all contribute to the snappiness. Several member here have owned this model. Maybe one of them will add their comments.

**jazz.fred** · 06-22-2016, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

The Godin sounds great in the hands of Gray!
And Lady Gaga! I wish she would put out an album with that rhythm section. I'd buy it in a heartbeat. Of course Tony B. sounds great as always.

I have become a huge Gaga fan since she started singing Jazz standards. She is also quite competent on piano. The lady can sing!

**Llewellen** · 06-22-2016, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Both of those videos were also played on the Ibanez JP20. The 25.5" scale length, maple neck, ebony board and pickup position would all contribute to the snappiness. Several member here have owned this model. Maybe one of them will add their comments.

Now you're partially heading into territory that I'm tying to avoid. My hand size is slightly on the small side of average and I'm getting up there in years. I can play the longer scale but I'm much more comfortable on the 24.75".

That said, I do agree that the longer scale (longer string length) would add some tightness, particularly on 6, 5 and 4.

**jbucklin** · 06-22-2016, 11:31 AM

That's the one thing that has kept me from being a Joe Pass fan. Genius of a player, but I can't get past his thin, trebly tone. What are some recordings with his fantastic tone?

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Joe played with some fantastic and some awful tones in his career. The only thing consistent was his high level of playing.

**jbucklin** · 06-22-2016, 11:35 AM

By the way, does The Kingpin II's CW mean cherrywood, or both kinds of music---C & Dubya?

**jbucklin** · 06-22-2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by jazz.fred

I have become a huge Gaga fan since she started singing Jazz standards. She is also quite competent on piano. The lady can sing!

Indeed! And to think how I used to scoff whenever
I would hear her pop stuff. I love when I'm surprised like that.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 11:41 AM

Originally Posted by jbucklin

By the way, does The Kingpin II's CW mean cherrywood, or both kinds of music---C & Dubya?

As absurd as it sounds, I always assumed it was a reference to the CutaWay that the is absent on the original Kingpin while the ii indicates either the second generation or the two pickups.

BTW, yesterday I tried tuning my Godin down a semitone and it's been just a blast to play that way. It was like the whole guitar just came to life.

**lawson-stone** · 06-22-2016, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I don't want to nit pick but I believe that's the Ibanez JP20 which has a 25.5" scale length and the video shows a Musicman amp, not his Polytone.

Well.. I did get the manufacturer right... ;-)

**lawson-stone** · 06-22-2016, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I don't want to nit pick but I believe that's the Ibanez JP20 which has a 25.5" scale length and the video shows a Musicman amp, not his Polytone.

Actually I was wondering if I was wrong about the scale length: isn't the JP20 a 24.75" scale? I thought Joe tended to like the shorter scale guitars.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Actually I was wondering if I was wrong about the scale length: isn't the JP20 a 24.75" scale? I thought Joe tended to like the shorter scale guitars.

Every reference to the specs that I've seen are 16" lower bout, 25.5" scale length, 1.75" nut width, maple neck with ebony board.

**lawson-stone** · 06-22-2016, 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

Every reference to the specs that I've seen are 16" lower bout, 25.5" scale length, 1.75" nut width, maple neck with ebony board.

Wow. I missed it on every single point. I should have looked it all up before I posted. Musicman? Joe Pass using a MUSICMAN?

Many things turn out to be true that are admittedly highly improbable.

**Jim Soloway** · 06-22-2016, 12:16 PM

Originally Posted by lawson-stone

Wow. I missed it on every single point. I should have looked it all up before I posted. Musicman? Joe Pass using a MUSICMAN?

Many things turn out to be true that are admittedly highly improbable.

I think that was probably an amp that was supplied to him by a promoter. It appears to be a festival performance and I think when Joe flew he only took his guitar.