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Originally Posted by Hammertone
Yup
Since I first went to work for a music store in 1980 I've seen Gibson attempt to introduce new models almost every year ... sometimes multiple models
Some are just variations on a previous success like all of the 335 and LP variants .. some of these stick some of these don't
Some are totally different and new ... some stick, but most get ignored because everyone wants to own one of the more iconic models .... and some just flop
I still have my original '70s RD standard ... sometimes I wish I had bought the Gibson Victory that was in the store were I worked .... I could have had the US map guitar, too, if I had been willing to pay out the bucks
I think the Johnny A makes for many of the also ran models that just didn't take off
Gibson's biggest competitor has always been their old guitars
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05-12-2016 04:53 PM
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Plus a whole bunch for the ES-137. I have one, and love it. Looks great, feels great, sounds great. I have a Classic, in cherry sb, which my local Gibson dealer found for me in lieu of the Custom I had ordered prior to the imported woods kerfluffel that set all ebony-boarded Gibs behind for the nonce. I want(ed) the custom for the Vari-tone (a minority stance here, I am aware) but my mid-60s Es-345 with patent-sticker pups covers that base pretty (mighty pretty) well. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
The ES-137 IMHO is a fine electric guitar with excellent qualities in all areas: playability, range of tones, comfort, looks, and resale value.
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Long live motorcycles & guitars wherever they're from!
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
I'll give you the flying V and explorer, which Jackson stole and Ibanez killed off with the Iceman. Not even Jimi could make them that popular!
You're scrapping the barrel with the Dove considering they are early 60's guitars but fine if you insist!
But don't pass off 5 variations of one guitar and think you're proving a point lol 75% of that list contains almost no original thinking. Tweeks of an original idea yes!
And thanks for the wiki on Gibson, I had never seen that before and of course didnt use it to verify my 'general' facts. I guess facts are no longer universal.
So apart from two acoustics which I'm giving you because early to mid 60's should have been in the catchment of Gibson 1.0 you've got two electrics in 50 years! Both off which though ironic wouldn't sustain a business by any means.
The vast majority of Gibson 1.2's output is models made in the first half (or just over) of the last century by Gibson 1.0; Les Pauls, L5's and J series acoustics.
(330! I'm still chuckling over that one)Last edited by Archie; 05-12-2016 at 05:34 PM.
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Ha! I knew it! :-) Originally Posted by Stringswinger
But y'know the studio looks so cheeeapppp and ooh for just $1,000 more you can have the nice cherry red one. :-) Actually I prefer the pickup spec on the studio...
Gibson know their trade. This really isn't about the sound of the instrument with yer 335's and Les Pauls. But fair play, a 335 studio would be a pretty respectable gigging machine I reckon for a reasonable wedge. I know quite a few 135 players, and those are good boxes too.
I can't help but compare to Fender where the more expensive guitars look more or less the same as the cheap ones. In many ways the Baja range is more attractive than the USA Deluxe range (Elites or whatever they call them now)...
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In the interest of giving consideration to the Gibson naysayers I went to Guitar Center to checkout Gibson prices. I saw a J-35 new on in-store clearance and priced for $1,199. To test the theory that a high quality solid wood Gibson acoustic w/ LR Baggs Element pickup could be purchased for such a low price - I bought one, new and in the box!
I don't know what you anti-Gibson folks could be talking about, this is one helluva guitar for $1,199.
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Congrats Max!
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Well my wife's hilariously plain looking 1960's Gibson student model acoustic sounds gorgeous... My local luthier says he prefers the student models from the period to the blingy ones... He set it up like a dream too. That's the steel string I'd take the the studio...
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Nice one BTW... How does she sound? Originally Posted by MaxTwang
In the interest of giving consideration to the Gibson naysayers I went to Guitar Center to checkout Gibson prices. I saw a J-35 new on in-store clearance and priced for $1,199. To test the theory that a high quality solid wood Gibson acoustic w/ LR Baggs Element pickup could be purchased for such a low price - I bought one, new and in the box!
I don't know what you anti-Gibson folks could be talking about, this is one helluva guitar for $1,199.
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Because that's what people are buying ...... that's what made Gibson famous Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Gibson tried to introduce new stuff like the Marauder, RD, Victory, MIII, Johnny A, and lots more ....
The Johnny A is hanging there, but the rest are essentially forgotten except for the occasional RD reissue
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Joe, it is the tricolor
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Really nice full mids and sparkle in the highs, but not too much sparkle. The sound is more 'traditional' than 'modern'. Good for fingerpicking and strumming. Originally Posted by christianm77
I payed some Taylors, Martins and Gibsons up to $3k and this is the guitar that spoke to me. I played the floor model for quite a while and asked if they had one still in the box: The salesperson came out with this one and I hit the strings as he handed it to me, I could feel the whole guitar resonate like it was about to shake apart, and the tone was beautiful - I told him "I'll take it" as he was handing it to me.
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I'm kind of astonished that they reissued the flipping Nighthawk, Originally Posted by Bluedawg
Maybe it's not all about looks then? :-)
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Which ever model has a hard core following that makes enough noise online, will get a re-issue. The nighthawk has a die hard cult like following.
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It's probably an absolutely killer gigging machine. And no, I don't care :-) Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
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That is a beautiful 137 for sure. My 135 is more of a plain Jane, but a GREAT player and jazz guitar.
That is a classy acoustic flattop too, btw.
I won't knock Gibson for making bad or overpriced guitars, but it is unfortunate they emphasize the high-end stuff over the more utilitarian offerings. The 335 is a nice guitar, but it's hard to justify that price with so many competitors out there. The 135 is every bit as suitable for jazz, in fact IMO better and a great deal more comfortable ergonomically, but Gibson can't decide to keep it in production continuously.
It's kind of like BMW emphasizing the 7 series over the 328.
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I don't understand your post. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
To which two electrics are you refering?
75% of which list?
I listed a bunch of guitars introduced between @1958-1958 - you think that they are good or bad or not original or what? I view the period of time up to @1968 as a continuation of Gibson's previous business. Do you? I take it that you don't like the ES-330? Gibson made and sold nearly 24,000 of these in the dozen years from '59 to '71.
I didn't list guitars introduced between 1969 and 1984. I'm not a big fan of Norlin-era Gibsons, but I do think there were some interesting and original instruments from that period, such as the L-6S ('73), Grabber/Ripper basses ('73), and Howard Roberts Fusion ('80).
I listed a bunch of guitars introduced between @1984-now - you think that they are good or bad or not original or what?Last edited by Hammertone; 05-12-2016 at 08:38 PM.
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Originally Posted by Hammertone
Tbh I dont even know why your taking what I said so seriously? I did say it was a general thought and that Im not going to seriously call Gibson 1.0 etc.. I was just trying to outline a general point which as yet you still haven't really shown enough evidence against, except for to make lists and then ask "What list"
If we can agree that the majority, maybe 90% of Gibson's sales, is from guitars designed pre 65? Which is what Im trying to say.
Tell you what, it's late and I've been trying to build a video and audio studio all day, as you can imagine, it's fun (sarcasm of course).
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No problem - you are 6 hours ahead - perhaps later. I read your post to mean that Gibson hasn't designed anything original (is this what you meant by "output as a company since then has been almost none existent?") since @1960. I disgree with that assertion. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Between 1960 and 1968 Gibson made @108,000 instruments that were models that did not exist prior to 1960. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
Total Gibson production during that period was @227,000 instruments.
This does not include any Epiphone production during that time.
So in the period from @1960 until CMI sold out to ECL/Norlin, almost half of their Gibson production consisted of new models. This does not include any ES-335/ES-330/Les Paul/most archtop/most flattop models.
I only have partial data on Norlin production totals and no data on post-1984 production totals. As a privately-owned company, Gibson's current owners are under no obligation to reveal that information.
If you are asserting that Gibson hasn't designed much that is original since @1984, I agree, but with the caveat that they have introduced a few new designs that are original and quite good. Since 1984, they have chosen to make lots of Les Paul, SG, ES-335, and other "older-style" guitars, but, as per the listing of some instruments introduced since 1984, they have also successfully introduced several newer instruments that are different from their older siblings (along with many that don't make the cut, such as the Firebird X). The Midtown series is just one of several examples - I have no idea how successful the Midtown variants have been without any actual sales data. I don't like the Midtown design, but my personal taste has nothing to do with Gibson's success or failure with this model.
While I am a fan of Goya's dark vision, I don't really connect it much to Gibson's operational production model, which is clearly based on using current and new technology to optimize the semi-automated production of instruments that consumers want, across a variety of market segments. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
My impression is that Gibson's Custom division and Gibson's Bozeman division do generally excellent work. Both of them came into existence after 1984. I've handled hundreds of their instruments and have been impressed with their overall build quality, sound, feel, playability and so forth. Perhaps you have a different view. I've also played hundreds of Gibson USA electric guitars, and have found a wider variation in QC, but very few instruments that couldn't be brought up to snuff with some very simple setup.Last edited by Hammertone; 05-13-2016 at 01:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
Yeah .. I forgot that one
I kind of like the Nighthawk .... but when it came out I was already well stocked with the guitars it kind of mimics ... and I didn't need a solid body for gigging
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You make that Heritage KB look great! Now, what kind of trick photography is that? ; ) (The Guild is no slouch either.) Love the dishy recurve on it. Now, that is a Heritage I could bond with but I am looking at it on its own merits as a Heritage, not as an ersatz Gibbie. Originally Posted by helios
Long live motorcycles & guitars wherever they're from!
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I tried a few of these in stores and they were dogs. I ended up with a '77 Ibanez artist for 1200 bucks and it is a hell of a player. There are a lot of options for less than the 2k dollars asked for that guitar. if you find a good one - awesome. But really, the ones I played in stores were really bad. Perhaps a big box store problem, I don't know.
Edit: this is in response to the es335 studio
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Thanks Jabber! It's cool that Kenny's signature is on the inside too: Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
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Regarding Gibson 1.0, 1.1, 1.2...
I am going to go with the concept that Gibson has built pretty great guitars throughout the whole period. I can say the best this or that was from this or that decade but fortunately, it's also been in someone's great hands to prove how great it is. There are good guitars and bad guitars from every era I expect. I am going to expect wartime (sudden exodus of workers and intake of new workers (nothing against women, just that new workers may not have the skills of practiced workers)) was less productive of great guitars, but I have heard some great 1940s guitars. Originally Posted by ArchtopHeaven
And if we think of the great craftsmen of good guitars out there in the past several decades from the Gibson mold or 'heritage' it is the guys at Heritage, Aaron Cowles, Jim Triggs, Bruce Kunkel, and others - all people who spanned Gibson 1.0 and 1.1 and Gibson 1.1 and 1.2.
We may not think the newly introduced guitar models in portions of 1.1 and 1.2 are to our taste, but that's kind of the point. They were introduced to sell to other people's tastes, because other people's tastes were evolving. And the build count was much greater there in the OPG (Other People's Guitars) section. So be it.
We moan and complain about how expensive Gibsons have become ("they have doubled since X or quadrupled since Y") but we never stop and ask ourselves, "Is it possible that the starting point we are measuring from was unreasonable (and therefore a good chunk of the increase was bringing us back to where it should have been)"?
For much of its life, the L5 cost 7-12 ounces of gold at MSRP. And largely between 50 and 200 barrels of oil. Now we are at roughly 7-8 ounces of gold and despite oil prices being their lowest in several years, an L5 costs about 200 barrels of oil. Maybe that tells you something about the relative price of oil and gold. In 1930, the average new car cost something like $650. Perhaps 2 L5s and change. Average now? Probably more like 3-4 L5s. Gasoline was 10-15cts a gallon in the early 1930s, compare that to the last few years average at $2.50+ and your talking about a multiplier of 20+x. L5s have are probably at the top end of that. Again, this is probably an indication oil (and gasoline) is cheap. A lawyer had an average annual income of $4200 in the early 30s. Now probably 20-30x that. That's about L5 territory I bet. A pilot was earning $8k. Now the average pilot in the US is probably earning 5x that. Pilots are cheap. A really cheap guitar was $10. Now you're probably 30x that.
How much was an L5 in the early 1930s? I am not sure (and this forum is so great I bet someone can tell me). I've seen some $250, and $275 prices for the early 30s. And some $275 prices for 1940, and some $375 prices in the 40s. But I think we get the quantum.
I'm going to guess that the price inflation of L5s from the 1920s-1940 period until the 80s was not nearly enough to cover actual inflation. And lower quantities of those instruments means higher fixed costs per guitar than in days of old. At which point, maybe the whole thing averages out and we here looking at prices are a) looking at things from the perspective of what might have been had we had more money (and foresight) back then, and b) looking at the competition, being cheaper now, we are startled.
I'm with Jabber. There are lots of really nice guitars out there. Gibson makes Gibsons. Lots of people grew up listening to Gibsons. So they're iconic. And lots of people love them. Lots of people my age had posters of Porsche 911s (with tails) and Lambo Countachs on their walls when they were kids. But not Miuras or Daytonas - they were old, a bit dowdy. The Daytonas and Miuras moved first because the people who had those posters on their walls were a few years older and had money earlier. Then the 911s and Lambos moved. People like what they know. It's comfortable. There's nothing wrong with that.
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One recent "experience" with those Studios. I went to a local store whose web site indicated they stocked some models from the Korea/Canada-made brand Prestige guitars. There were a few impressive demos online, high quality build and great sound. I was informed they had just discontinued them because they didn't sell as well as expected, and moreover Prestige had suddenly raised their prices by 30%. But it didn't matter, the clerk informed me, because we now have those super duper awesome, new affordable 335s from Gibson, for 1,800 Swiss francs, and "it is a real Gibson, you know, nothing quite compares" (aka "the wise voice of the market", or sheeptalk, depending on perspective). "Oh yeah? can I see ?" - thinking maybe Gibson is finally coming to reason, even though for that price, a few superior, first-world MIJ instruments are available on the market here. So we went to his computer and he showed me the above-mentioned monstrosity, with the cheap, thick paintjobs, horrible colors and color schemes, and downgraded electronics, on his catalog - the clerk could probably sense my repressed "YEEEWW", especially after he mentioned he had slightly misquoted the price, which was, in fact, 2,300 SF ($2,500) - an absolute joke of a price for that... thing; I would pay $450 max, honestly. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Last edited by m_d; 05-13-2016 at 06:52 AM.
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