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As most of us know the landscape is littered with ES175 players. Countless examples. Why not more '50's L4C players? I'm not referring to the L4ces.
Difficulty amplifying? Feedback issues due to the carved top?
I can't think of any off the top of my head. Thoughts?
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04-14-2016 08:13 AM
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Lot fewer of them around for one thing.
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Very different guitars, sound wise.
Fewer L4'S around, and some people (wrongly) see them as a "baby L5, so the crowd that attracts would rather have the coveted 17" model...
But overall, it has nothing to do with the L4 and everything to do with the 175...the 175 is THE guitar on 100's of classic jazz recordings, recordings almost every jazz guitar player loves...so people want THAT guitar...not one that looks like it.
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Fifty years ago:
Danny W.
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What he said. Up to 1980, Gibson made @27,000 ES-175 guitars and @1,500 L-4C guitars. Since 1980, Gibson has made thousands more ES-175 guitars. The number of L-4C guitars made since 1960 can probably be counted on one hand. The L-4C is an uncommon guitar.
Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Last edited by Hammertone; 04-14-2016 at 09:36 AM.
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Someone in the 50s shopping for an acoustic could get an L7C for about 50 bucks more than an L4C. Someone shopping for an electric would have to come up with $175-200 to move from an ES175 to an ES350. So a lot of ES175s and L7Cs got sold. Not sure there were very many folks shopping for L4Cs with the intent of putting a pickup on it in those days, so those buyers were not comparing the L4C with the ES175.
Note that you can basically add a zero to those numbers to account for inflation. They were often purchases made my professional musicians pricing a tool for the job.
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I picked up my 1956 L4C twenty years ago in Houston, TX. It was in pretty rough condition. The pickup was on it, but the pickguard looked like it was handmade. Judging from the fret wear, it was used mostly for "cowboy chords". I sent it to Aaron Cowles in Kalamazoo and he refretted it and also made a pickguard. Someone told me that these guitars were popular with Western Swing players. Most of them were acoustic and only later did players add the pickups.
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When I was rotated back to the states from abroad in 1968 I sold mine to a C&W player who really liked western swing. He also bought my JBL-loaded '64 Twin Reverb. Originally Posted by Gibson L4CES
Danny W.
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What do those model names mean in Hammertone's chart? What is a 175N, 175D, etc.
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D = double pickups Originally Posted by RyanM
N = natural, instead of sunburst, finish
CC = Charlie Christian pickup
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I have a 1952 L-4 and it is truly a wonderful instrument. With the de Armond 1000 it doubles as an electric but I hardly ever use the pick up. The guitar inspires me to play and that is what it's all about for me.
Thanks John
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Okay, Danny...you showed up with maybe my favorite "blast from the past" picture of all time. The skinny kid in the combo of adults is outstanding.
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Thank you--glad you like it. I was about half the age of the drummer and vibes player. We had the most popular musical group in the Canal Zone & Panama City for the eighteen months I was stationed there. Won all the jazz polls and a Zone-wide entertainment contest, played Officer's & NCO clubs and occasionally El Panama Hilton or the Hotel Internationale, four-hour sets, five or six nights a week. Plus, the Army expected me to be at work six days a week. Originally Posted by Greentone
Danny W.
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Interesting thread.
I know that teleboli said in the opening question that it is not about L4-CES but maybe it would be a good question too?
Or is the L4-CES one of the most used workhorse in jazz but I just have not noticed it? Which 'Big Ones' played or plays L4-CES?
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The L4-CES was not cataloged until 1987. Since then, it has competed with the ES-175, I assume at a higher price point. The L4-CES has no appreciable acoustic sound (it sounds nothing like an L4C), so there is not much reason to spend extra dough on it.
The L5-CES has not had the same competition; Gibson stopped making the full depth ES-350 in the early 50s, so it has pretty much had the 17 inch full depth CES field to itself. I know about Tals and Barneys, but they have always been niche instruments, probably due to their looks and initial price points.
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Joe Diorio, Rich Severson, and Joe Dalton have all played L4-CES's from time to time.
Actually, I like the acoustic tone of my L4-CES to practice with...good for apt. volume. There is a definite richness to the L4-CES, amplified, which is fuller than a 175-type of laminate sound. I LIKE the 175 sound a LOT, as well, and my Aria Pro II EA-650 gets most of the way there...as does a Heritage 550 (more or less a Heritage Tal Farlow) which has that drier, more defined laminate tone with pronounced mid-range thunk.
Put it this way, if an L5-CES is a Rolls Royce then an L4-CES is a Bentley...a little less expensive but sharing a lot of the same attributes.
But I don't want to blow the L4-CES horn too much: I wouldn't have been able to pick one up for the same (or less than) price as a 175. It's kind of like the golf course I play...hilly, tough greens, but I like its demanding reputation...keeps the crowds away.
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I think this interesting analogy is nationally culture-sensitive; on this side of the pond, Bentleys were, and maybe still are, typically bought by those with easily enough wealth to afford a Rolls, but who didn't wish to run the risk of being suspected to be nouveau riche. The Queen excepted, of course. Originally Posted by goldenwave77
Not that I have any direct experience; I have a VW
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And, no offence to any Rolls- Royce driving member....
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On this side of the pond, the nouveau types also have Bentleys.
Wilt Chamberlain, the basketball player, drove one, and he wrote a book in which he claimed he had 30,000 sexual episodes---with other people, mind you. (I forget the exact number, didn't read the book, but do remember that everyone had a good laugh about this one, because the math just turned out not to be possible.)
Don't know if he had an L4-CES...probably not, though he did run Small's Paradise for a while, and invited Kareem Abdul Jabbar there. (Kareem was, and probably still is, a big jazz fan.)
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I agree the L-4CES has it's own voice. My 2009 has opened up and sounds very good acoustically, especially with round wound strings and an ebony bridge but nothing like my 1952 L-4. When I got my L-4 it was a ..WOW moment. But I really enjoy both.
Thanks john
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Awesome penny loafers. Originally Posted by Danny W.
Fifty years ago:
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I still wear those...never changed the style out from my college years.
"Fashion....a form of ugliness so intolerable that it must be changed every six months."
____Oscar Wilde
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I bought a single P/U 175 in '62. Had I known at the time about L-4's with solid tops, I'd have had one in a heartbeat. The players knew all about them, and kept their eyes open. Around here they'd add Slimbuckers, and CC's.
Yes they may be harder too find, but worth it. And sell for either even money w/ 175's or less. And are more versatile.
I have always thought all any 175 is ever going to sound like is a 175. But you can easily get that 175 sound and lot more with an L-4.
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This is Joe Diorio on his L4-CES (I believe). When I think of the difference in sound between an ES-175 and an L4-CES, I think of this. (Although ES-175s can sound like a lot of things--Steve Howe, rockabilly, blues, etc.)
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Wow! As an ES175 player I sometimes wonder should I GAS this Big Brother of ES175 and of course wondered is it worth extra dough. All Your answers are eye openers for me!
And very needed basic study in the History of the jazz guitar.
(Says a driver of an Opel Astra Wagon year 2000...)
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I'm liking my recently acquired '50 L-4c quite a lot....
It has a hefty but perfectly proportioned neck for me and sounds surprisingly good played as an acoustic. It does have a carved top but with the laminated back, I'd figured the acoustic sound would be so-so. I assumed it would have to make it as an electric with a floater. It does both nicely.
I've been playing a '49 L-7c for several years now.....both have McCarty units.
Whats nice is that even when amplified, I can here the difference in string and acoustic body resonance between these 16" and 17" guitars quite clearly.
This L-4c was played a lot.....and is so comfortable to sit and play that I get right to the music and leave the distractions somewhere else. That a place I need to be these days.
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