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We seem to be living in worrying times as guitar players in Europe. There have been a number of articles in papers in the UK about seizures of guitars where no proof of legitimate use of protected timbers is available.
Given that very few players have even considered this problem it could be a very rude awakening. Especially as this does not just concern recently made instruments.
I wonder if anyone has some light to shine upon this issue?
These are a few articles I found:
Have Guitar Passport, Will Travel | Fretboard JournalLast edited by silhouette; 04-03-2016 at 08:33 AM.
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04-03-2016 08:22 AM
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Holding an end user responsible for a legitimate manufacturer's error? I guess these rogue governments look at it the same as illegally harvested, manufactured, distributed, and sold ivory, animal hides etc.
The differences as I see it are the LEGAL manufacturers who employ people using RENEWABLE resource as opposed to the completely clandestine operation of smuggling endangered non-renewable species.
I guess this could not apply to vintage instruments made before any such determination of protection status?Last edited by GNAPPI; 04-03-2016 at 11:14 AM.
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Rogue governments would include the US as they apply this as well.
The problem is to prove that you have a guitar that passes the set criteria for using legal timbers. There seems to be no easy way to do so. Unless the manufacturers can come up with the legal documents themselves to cover their customers done on a serial number basis.
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I cross the US - Canada border about once a year by car and they normally seem to have no interest in a guitar when tell them I plan to return with it. Not sure if this will change. I make sure I bring one that has no obviously exotic unusual woods or inlay.
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What are they going to do? Take a sample of the rosewood in your fingerboard and throw it in a mass spectrometer to see if it's Indian or Brazilian?
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There have been publicised cases of musicians who have had their guitars confiscated in Germany with no prospect of getting them back.
Guitars with Brazilian Rosewood ? Exporting from the US into the EU ? What is possible and what not | Mark Knopfler Guitar / More Knowledge of the guitar
https://ibma.org/press/archives/you-...ow-about-cites
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Originally Posted by silhouette
No argument there, what they did to Gibson was unreal. But so far no individual has had a guitar confiscated... yet :-)
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I've been waiting for years that the big guitar companies sell their instruments with certificates naming all used materials. Wood species like ebony sure will be on top of the list of endangered species one day, so this would make life easier for future owners of the instruments. It might also raise the resale value, so the companies themselves would profit from it, too. It would be an easy thing to do but since they're not doing it, their sources for some timbers may be dubious or their marketing strategies just unprofessional.
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so what materials are at risk for confiscation? i need to know where to route my next stadium tour
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Have a read through the bnbguitars.com link and the Mark Knopfler link.
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Do we have many accounts where guitars were actually confiscated? When you think how many very modest guitars there are on planes, and how many have a rosewood fingerboard and bridge, that's a lot of guitars to be at risk for confiscation. I fly internationally a lot, often with a guitar, and never heard of this until now. Is there a change in the regulatory environment that brings this up now? It's really disturbing if generic, factory made instruments in the $300 range are at risk for confiscation or their owners at risk for fines.
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One of the main offenders is Germany and one of the links describes the cancellation of a vintage guitar show.I would imagine that most recent cheaper guitars are not made with more expensive tonewoods. I know that my 335 has an Indian Rosewood board, but my 77 175 I am not so sure about. My L4 certainly has an ebony board. I don't think I will be travelling with any of them to continental Europe in the near future.
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I still wonder whether the typical customs officer can tell the difference between Indian and Brazilian rosewood? I think I might need to go out and buy a guitar just for international travel that is pretty clearly not in violation. That's quite unnerving.
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Would somebody explain to me what the confiscation of a guitar made out of wood harvested 50 years ago would change to today's environment care ?
I havé a ´59 ES125T. Perhaps I shouldn't tell it too loud. The Wood Police gonna catch me for the Brazilian Rosewood !
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Likewise I have a 1951 175. Originally Posted by 339 in june
It is a bit like the Ivory thing. A lot of priceless stuff was destroyed, and to what end. Yes it is a despicable trade but I am not sure it is respectful to the creatures themselves to destroy their last remains - likewise the wood in guitars.
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04-04-2016, 02:47 PM #16dortmundjazzguitar GuestCITES is international law. in germany it is also called the "washington agreement" since it was initiated by and ratified in the US. germany signed the agreement one year later. today this law is binding for almost 190 countries, or as you would call them "offenders"... Originally Posted by silhouette
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you think this is bad? I read a story a few years ago where a symphony came here to the states from Europe and the customs man practically took away all their instruments.
for us guitar pickers a "vintage" axe might be from 1950
but you know violins are out there that are well over 100 years old, all made of endangered tropical woods. Hell, how do you think they got endangered to start with? Yep, we made furniture and musical instruments out of them....oh, and the bow tips were usually made of ivory back then, too
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04-04-2016, 02:49 PM #18dortmundjazzguitar Guestinstruments build before 1947 are excluded from cites. plz don't make stuff up. Originally Posted by Nate Miller
you think this is bad? I read a story a few years ago where a symphony came here to the states from Europe and the customs man practically took away all their instruments.
for us guitar pickers a "vintage" axe might be from 1950
but you know violins are out there that are well over 100 years old, all made of endangered tropical woods. Hell, how do you think they got endangered to start with? Yep, we made furniture and musical instruments out of them....oh, and the bow tips were usually made of ivory back then, too
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I'm not making stuff up. Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
WQXR - New York's Classical Music Radio Station
I saw a story a couple years ago, didn't remember all the details so kill me already
you want to apologize? or do you think you were justified?
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Couldn't one guy in Brazil grow enough Brazilian rosewood in his back yard to create enough fingerboards for every high end guitar manufactured from here to eternity? If left completely unregulated, wouldn't the price of this stuff go up enough so that folks would do that? Or better yet, put them in a tree museum, and charge everyone a dollar and a half just to see em?
Last edited by nopedals; 04-04-2016 at 04:31 PM.
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Most of the big builders stopped buying Brazillian Rosewood in the 60's so your 1977 should be Indian or Madagascar. Around 2003 Gibson did make some guitars with Brazillian 'stump wood' fingerboards. Originally Posted by silhouette
Other manufacturers have continued to use it. PRS has made guitars with solid Brazilian necks (but I wouldn't know anything about those
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Which brings ip the situation where guitars recently made with legally obtained Brazillian rosewood could be at risk of being confiscated.Last edited by MaxTwang; 04-04-2016 at 03:42 PM.
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Boy am I ever glad I have no problem with richlite :-)
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Just wait until we find out richlite is really unicorn horn. Originally Posted by GNAPPI
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The confiscation is not to directly help today's environment but to punish you for breaking the law. In addition you will not be able to promote the wood species in question anymore in public. At least not with this instrument. Originally Posted by 339 in june
Only if you try to sell it or earn money with it. Owning and playing it in private at home is allowed. Originally Posted by 339 in june
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But it doesn't punish one for breaking the law. It punishes someone for doing something perfectly legal at the time it was done but which subsequently was criminalizes. A historic, traditional principle of law, recognized at least in the US Constitution (and I know the US is only one natonality present here) is the refusal to prosecute "ex post facto" offenses, things done that are legal at the time but later proscribed by, criminalized in later law. Originally Posted by Drifter
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