Are Jazz Guitarist Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 08:16 PM

I saw a funny picture on FB and thought that as Jazz guitarist the trend is toward smaller and smaller amps. Many times at the expense of good tone. Let's face it, when one plugs into a Super Reverb, Tweed Bassman, Ampeg and some of the other revered classics, there is very little adjustment to the knobs needed. It's for the most part plug and play. I tried to get with everyone else on the small cool jazz amp trends, but when I AB with any classics the tone is not even comparable. At least to me. Is our taste changing, are small little compact amps good enough that we can honestly say they sound as great as any larger tube amp or are we growing tone deaf from lack of exposure to the originals?

I have tried at least 5 different "jazz oriented" small solid state amps, acoustic amps, etc. I always pumped with the amps until I do the dreaded AB test. Is it only me are there others out there that feel the same?

Of course If your sound is oriented at a modern, acoustic archtop sound then this might not apply at all.

Are Jazz Guitarist Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone-1930745_565870513594394_7380701517279469331_n-jpg

Are Jazz Guitarist Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone-1930745_565870513594394_7380701517279469331_n-jpg

Not my picture, I saw someone post it on the jazz guitar page on FB.

**drbhrb** · 03-19-2016, 08:59 PM

Can't agree at all. I think people fetishise large fender tube amps for no reason. I get the exact tone I'm looking for (and many others) our of my 8" Quilter micropro. I'll never go back to the hassle and weight of tubes. Was recently in the studio and messed around with the handful of tubes amps they had set up and ended up recording with my Quilter. Even when I didn't have to haul an amp.

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 09:10 PM

Originally Posted by drbhrb

Can't agree at all. I think people fetishise large fender tube amps for no reason. I get the exact tone I'm looking for (and many others) our of my 8" Quilter micropro. I'll never go back to the hassle and weight of tubes. Was recently in the studio and messed around with the handful of tubes amps they had set up and ended up recording with my Quilter. Even when I didn't have to haul an amp.

Yea, the Quilter amps are pretty good. Perhaps an exeption to the rule. My old man purchased an Aviator and said the sound was very close to the old Fender, but after gigging with it for some time did remark that it was lacking the oomph he gets with tube amps. He is a blues player though and does not play jazz guitars generally.

Here he is ripping some blues stuff a few years ago with the trusty strat and Fender amp..

**neatomic** · 03-19-2016, 09:13 PM

first off i think you are confusing aging with laziness..in my youth i'd carry an ampeg 8x10 stack up 3 flights of stairs..these days i have no such desire...nor would i want to play as loud...

having said that..i still prefer a good tube amp over any kind of solid state amp...vintage or new..tubes have a natural compression i love..& these days there are many many options for a portable lightweight great sounding tube amp...

lastly, i never considered a tube amp as plug and play...tone is individual and something that must be dialed in no matter what the gear

cheers

ps- i have one of those little marshall amps as pictured above...somewhere in the cobwebbed corner of my music closet!! haha

cheers

**Bosko** · 03-19-2016, 09:20 PM

The tradeoff of convenience vs tone has been around for a long time.

**gitrman** · 03-19-2016, 09:27 PM

Tone is totally subjective; good tone to my ears, may not be to yours.
Also, when it comes to amps, in my youth, my 1st question was always "how many watts is it?" , now it's "how many pounds is it?"

**Boston Joe** · 03-19-2016, 09:29 PM

I love, love, LOVE the sound of my all tube Dr. Z., but the thing is, my SS Acoustic A) sounds about 80% as good, B) is much, MUCH lighter, and C) is less fragile.

I'll take the Acoustic to jam sessions, but I'd rather gig with the Dr. Z.

Maybe my bias towards tube amps (see what I did there?) comes from playing rock for a bunch of years, but to my ears, tube amps have two advantages. 1. They're more "open" sounding. I don't know of another way to put this. It seems like there's more "air" around the sound. SS amps tend to sound a little "stuffy" to me, and 2. SS amps are fast. It feels to me sometimes like the note is jumping out of the speaker almost before I play it. Tube amps have a bit of sag, so they don't feel quite as nervous.

Now, I'm not saying I dislike SS amps. My Acoustic is a great sounding, powerful, cheap little amp. Previously, I had a Polytone that was pretty classic sounding. But the tube amps... those amps are like (as Jeremy Clarkson once said about cornering in a BMW M3) "smearing honey onto Kiera Knightly." But, you know, with sound.

**Jim Soloway** · 03-19-2016, 09:32 PM

I'll add something to what's already been said: I don't agree at all with the notion that those old classics required little or no adjustment, especially if you're planning to record them.

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 09:36 PM

LOL, I'm still young, but I'm 40 and 20 years go quickly. But I'm not 20 and weigtht does matter. Hence my old man has been looking for a lightweight amp to carry around that sounds as good to him as the ole tube amps. We had this discussion recently, so I thought I post it here. He is a believer that everything old is better and sometimes I do have to agree. At least to my ears the larger cabinets and tube compression has a lot to offer. Some of the amps I've tried are nasal, focused, harsh on the high end or simply sound bad all together.

Not to bash any ones gear or tastes I'll mention the "jazz" or acoustic amps I've owned without saying what I thought of them:

Roland Cube about 3 of them
Roland JC 70
Fender Jazzmaster Ultra light
Henriksen 112 ER/Still own but might sell it.
Vox AG70
Roland AC60
Lunch Box
Genz-Benz Shennandoah
Fender Acoustasonic with the weird side speaker.
Evans with a 15", forgot the model but an early version
I've tried many others from friends, but not owned them

Tube amps I've owned so many that I could not even list them here.

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 09:38 PM

One thing I will say is that tube amps are a pain to maintain and keep working right. Reliability and road worthiness is always an issue. But I work on amps, so for me not much to worry about.

**neatomic** · 03-19-2016, 09:45 PM

get dad a fender princeton reverb and replace the speaker with a neo magnet speaker...or if you want to go $$ boutique, so many great tube amps now...swart, carr, delisle, cva etc etc...easier than ever...independent amp builders have recognized that people want great sounding portable amps...they are out there in abundance!!

cheers

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 09:54 PM

He's been playing a Luis Electric beefed up Princeton inspired amp. He loves it. He owns a Cube 60 for smaller gigs and the Aviator. He still believes non of them stand a chance when compared to tunes.

I, recently sold my modified 68 Deluxe Reverb and built a Tweed Bassman inside a Luis Electric cabinet with a single 12"

My only 2 amps for now:

Are Jazz Guitarist Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone-img_0959-jpg

Are Jazz Guitarist Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone-img_0959-jpg

BTW, I meant the post as a question, not a statement

**jorgemg1984** · 03-19-2016, 10:03 PM

There's a solution for tube tone and ss weight size practicality etc: modelling.

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 10:08 PM

Yeah,Louis Electric, sorry. I don't own one he does so not sure of the spelling. There are a few YouTube videos where he demonstrates them. I just got the freebie cabinet as it was damaged, bit good enough for me

Modeling amps? Maybe.

**pubylakeg** · 03-19-2016, 11:23 PM

Check out this clip, headphones recommended.

**abelljo** · 03-19-2016, 11:59 PM

Get, a 30 dollar amp and pair it with a 2k dollar mic

that's the ticket. Sounded pretty good I must admit!

**Herbie** · 03-20-2016, 01:38 AM

I think that jazz guitarists (or country or any pro) have always chosen the lightest possible amp there is. In the past there was only tube amps and no pa systems, so the Twin might have been lightest possible amp in many ways.

I don't know if the Polytone was first amp that was lighter but when it came, everybody who could took it took it. In the same years the pa systems started to spread so You didn't need all the wattage from the same unit.

Nowadays there is more perfect sounding – and "almost perfect" sounding too – than ever so guitarists have more options than ever. But funnily still: the Twin is still the measure!

Personally I have played rock for my whole life with Vox AC30 so I know there is not a free lunch in guitar sound. For jazz gigs I love my 70/80's Polytone Mini Brute but tube amps has that naturalness and opennes that I am happy to carry my Princeton or my Tweed clone instead of it. Although these all three weight about the same, no contest there.

I wonder that "hassle with tubes" speak. Aren't guitars a hassle of their own? You have to change strings, tune it between every song, avoid excessive heating and not dropping them. What a hassle! Compared to any modern lightweight keyboard, for example. Tube amps are more like instruments, they sound better if You tune them, that's it.

**mr quick** · 03-20-2016, 04:17 AM

I have all my sound settings in my Boss SY-300. All I need is a neutral amp. Heck, with the amp simulator I can go direct, circumventing the amp entirely.
Yes, there are great amps there but what's it matter when everyone's playing the same stuff? Gibson thunker with the tone way down. How fresh...
Not saying that it's a bad sound but if people are gonna get THIS caught up in gear I'd at least expect some level of individualism in the sound!

**LtKojak** · 03-20-2016, 05:37 AM

Originally Posted by abelljo

I tried to get with everyone else on the small cool jazz amp trends, but when I AB with any classics the tone is not even comparable. At least to me.

I think you're pretty alone on this one...

Good tone is good tone.

It's timeless AND gearless.

Deal with it!

J/K

**jazzbow** · 03-20-2016, 07:15 AM

When I play in a Bass, Drums and Keyboard band setting I find I have to cut the bass and treble and boost the mids to cut through the mix.

At this point it doesn't matter whether it's a valve or SS amp, only speaker size helps. At this point I take my Cube 60 as it's lighter to lug around.

In a more intimate club, band setting or recording then it's valve all the way!

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-20-2016, 08:45 AM

Originally Posted by Herbie

I wonder that "hassle with tubes" speak. Aren't guitars a hassle of their own? You have to change strings, tune it between every song, avoid excessive heating and not dropping them. What a hassle! Compared to any modern lightweight keyboard, for example. Tube amps are more like instruments, they sound better if You tune them, that's it.

Hehe, I think the keyboard player in our band would beg to differ...

A full size quality digital keyboard is not super light--close to 50 pounds. His Roland is about 6 feet long, so won't fit in any car trunk. The case, which is padded and rather bulky, has wheels. He also needs a music stand, of course, and brings a portable PA which he usually uses as a monitor. Plus cords, music stand, accessory light, etc...

The standup bass is no picnic either, but he doesn't bring his own amp, just has a small DSP and plugs into the soundsystem.

The drummer has it worst of course.

I envy the sax guy. An alto sax is tiny. The flute fits into a pocket on the side of the sax case. He insists on bringing a clarinet and tenor too, though, so not as portable as he could be.

I agree when you're playing out size matters. I used to bring the SCXD, but there's not as much headroom as I would like particularly in a noisy club setting. The Fishman Artist is loud, has a nice clean sound, and allows enough sound shaping via the controls to get the sound I want.

My goal for portability is one trip from the car, no hernias. I do have a wheeled luggage carrier in case I'm parked super far away and it will be quite a trek.

**jzucker** · 03-20-2016, 09:24 AM

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**abelljo** · 03-20-2016, 10:27 AM

Nothing lazy about Kurt Rosenwinkle. lol Is he at roadie level yet?

**Boston Joe** · 03-20-2016, 10:31 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

There's a solution for tube tone and ss weight size practicality etc: modelling.

Yeah, no.

Modelling amps have never done it for me. When I A/B them against the amps they're supposed to be modeling they come off as very 2-dimensional. Like comparing a picture of a guitar with a real guitar.

**stoneground** · 03-20-2016, 10:43 AM

I had to walk about half a mile carrying my gear to a gig last week. This was possible with a Polytone Mega-brute, my 165 and a backpack for all the other bits. It would have been unpleasant carrying my Musicman 112 RP and impossible with my Trace Elliot Speedtwin C30. Both those valve amps are in need of repair (again) and I have been lazy about getting anything done since the Polytone is so portable and produces a great jazz tone. However, all this talk about the nuances of valve amp tone is making me rather nostaglic about my old amps and the Polytone is not that versatile if you want to mix things up a bit. The question is whether to plough more money into further repairs or save up for a slightly more portable valve combo.