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Well, when I get my butt of the sofa, I'll take some pics of my 112ER and post it here and on ebay. I have an EV in it right now, but might put the original speaker and sell it. I'll probably build a tweed 5E3 with larger transformers and 6L6 tubes. Maybe the EV will go in there, or perhaps a NEO. I like reverb, but the delay pedal works just as well for me.
With the Henriksen I just have to tweak to much to get to the sound in my head. It sounds to focused and is missing the dimension I like. The reverb is useless anyway on this amp and with the much needed EV speaker upgrade it defies the purpose as it now is heavy as heck! I think that for those you favor a more acoustic tone and perhaps a floating pickup, this amp will serve just right.
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03-20-2016 10:52 AM
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IMHO a lot of Fender amps sound terrible for jazz- at least for me, I have heard others sound great with them- with the extreme midrange scoop, and for too many people "tube amp" = "Fender amp." There are some exceptions- I have a 5E3 that sounds good with my Tele for jazz (unusable with my archtops due to the exaggerated bass response, though) and a 72 Pro Reverb that needs a lot of extreme EQ to work for jazz (but is glorious for blues).
Last night's gig was done with my Cushman carvetop, a Zoom MS100bt acting as a preamp, reverb and amp modeler and an Alto TS110A powered speaker. Worked great, sounded very good, got the job done.
Once you're on stage with the horns, drums and bass 90% of the nuance of your amp is totally overshadowed. We sweat over this stuff in our living rooms but on stage it barely matters.
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Modeling works fine if one takes the time to tweak. I stopped using conventional amps once the Bose L1 system came out, never looked back. A tube mic preamp from Lexicon or ART gets the tube sound, in a tiny, lightweight package, and a decent multi-effects/modeling pedal from Digitech, Korg, Zoom or many others will get you the reverb, chorusing, EQ, distortion or whatever you like. I use a Bose Compact on stage on virtually every gig I do, taking it into the house if necessary, but it always gives me exactly what I'm looking for, is easy to hear (self-monitoring as well), lightweight and simple to run, and includes a mic input and channel, great for duo gigs with sax or flute or vocalist. One trip in and out for most gigs, with or without lightweight folding luggage carrier. At 200-250 gigs annually, it's the way to go.
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Yeah, the thing about the mid scoop with the blackface circuit is a common issue among many jazz guitarist that flavor more mids. It's an easy fix, but most don't don't ever address the issue with the amp. Ive seen,Wes Montgomery, Julian Lage, Peter Burstein, Geroge Benson among others getting great tone out of blackface Fenders. To me too much mids give you a honky nasal sound, but lack of mids can sound weak and not cut. You are so right about the bass response with tweeds. That's probably why they work so well with alnico speakers. I tweaked my tweed bassman circuit to address the issue.
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Not my opinion. What modelers have you tried?
Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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Posted the Henriksen in the For Sale section.
Need the funds for the Tweed Deluxe.
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Line6 and Vox mostly. The ones out now are better than the ones when they first came out, but they've still got a ways to go. I can hear a definite difference in the sound when A/B'd against a tube amp. The tube amp is rounder, more 3D and just more organic sounding. I'd rather use a good SS amp than a modeler. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I saw John McLaughlin using a modeling program on a computer for his sound. He played great but his tone was just bloody awful.
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Both problems are easily solvable - a good eq pedal with a low cut will take care of lack of mids and excessive bass. Once you do that Fender amps can sound incredible. Excessive bass on humbucker archtops also happens with tons of non-fender amps. Originally Posted by Cunamara
As a side note by your recommendation I just got the Acoustic bass amp for the MS100Bt, trying it soon.
On stage it really depends... If you have a good PA and everyone is balanced amp nuances can definitely be heard - "jazz amps" sound very different from Fenders (even after mids are added and bass is cut). IMO of course.
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Line6 and Vox are very far from good modelers. I never tried the Kemper or the Axe FX - but plenty of people whose I opinion I trust did and are very happy. My own system is a set of pedals plus IR emulation and I can get excellent Fender and Polytone sounds, very hard to notice the difference. Of course modelers sound like miced cabs and amps sounds like cabs in the room, which is a big difference. A difference I happen to like... I had tons of SS amps and played blackface Vibrolux regularly - enjoy modelling a lot more. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
Not wanting to bash Hohn but his sounds was never out of this world, to me, amps or no amps. Kurt Rosenwinkel gets incredible tones with modelling.
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Does the Roland Cube qualify as modeling? If so, the cube although has great tone especially for the price it does not sound exactly and in some cases not even close to the amps it attempts to model. I liked the BF model and the JC model. I've owned to 60s and an 80. I liked the 60s better.
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Some of the problems of the Henriksen are in the EQ and cab design (and reverb), hard to solve. The EV helps a lot but it doesn't fix the whole amp. Using pedals can help... I am not a fan of EVs in Fender amps but try it. Tweeds can sound great except the bass which can be overwhelming in my experience. Originally Posted by abelljo
Posted the Henriksen in the For Sale section. Need the funds for the Tweed Deluxe.
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Cubes are modelling I believe. I'm not a big fan but they are usable for sure!
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03-20-2016, 12:06 PM #38destinytot GuestSo that's what Michael Fassbender's Jung was trying to do in A Dangerous Method. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
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I have to do plenty of tweaking on a tube amp too.
I think a tube amp is one great sound. I'm glad I own a good one. I'm also glad I have great sounding smaller, lighter, more powerful amps too.
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All this talk of valve tone this, SS tone that, modelling niff naff and trivia.
What about hybrids?
Koch Jupiter looks the shizz.
Smart looks
Simple SS circuit with 12" speaker and 2 valves for O/D
Also comes with 2 12" speakers.
Anyone here plays a hybrid?Last edited by jazzbow; 03-20-2016 at 01:14 PM.
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[QUOTE=jazzbow;632015]All this talk of valve tone this, SS tone that, modelling niff naff and trivia.
What about hybrids?
Koch Jupiter looks the shizz.
Smart looks
Simple SS circuit with 12" speaker and 2 valves for O/D
I don't own one, but recommended it to a friend after trying one so I get to play his often (1x12). Fantastic cleans, very manageable weight, great price.
Hammertone has been praising these for a while and I concur, great amps for archtops and semis.
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True. Although it seems to me that if I have to add extra EQ to make the amp sound good, then it's not the right amp. I have a patch set up in the MS100BT to use a parametric EQ and add a touch of reverb for the 5E3 and it does help tame the bass end. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
I have thus far found that to be the best amp model for jazz. I may try the SansAmp Bass Driver patch and see if that's workable.As a side note by your recommendation I just got the Acoustic bass amp for the MS100Bt, trying it soon.
We generally play acoustically with the horns and drums in small venues and just self-balance the bass and guitar amps with the horns and drums; we do only a half dozen gigs a year with a PA so I have no real skills with that at all. I have no idea what it sounds like from the audience perspective.On stage it really depends... If you have a good PA and everyone is balanced amp nuances can definitely be heard - "jazz amps" sound very different from Fenders (even after mids are added and bass is cut). IMO of course.
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I remember 10-12 years ago gigging with a rock band when I was in high school thinking nothing of lugging around a 4x12 cab and head to gigs two or three times a week. I recently took my 2x12 Line 6 to NY to prepare for a move and lugging that thing up and down stairs was awful! I love my little JazzKat, which is deceivingly heavy for a small amp, but sounds just wonderful. I was never a tube amp guy, and that was just because as a teenager, they were too expensive. My Line 6 with the longboard is in all in one package that was great for recording and gigging. Once I settle in to my new home this year, I would like an old Fender Tube amp, but that is the definition of a want versus need. I will add, my decision to get the JazzKat was because of hearing some of my favorites play them. I will eventually try out an AER.
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My main giging amps for electric are a Princeton RI and a Quilter Micro Pro. The PRRI is the tone for me, but the Quilter is also nice and has a seriously flexible eq setup. I've never heard a modeling setup I liked. I also have a Twin RI for when I need more volume than is good for anyone
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I've been using modelers almost exclusively since 2005 and I beg to differ. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
As I've said before: "it's not the hammer, it's how you use it".
HTH,
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When I was doing sort of amateur gigs--playing at friends' parties and such--I bought a nice pull-cart with bungees that you'd use to lash your bags on at the airport. I could easily lash my Polytone Mini-Brute on there, a book bag with my cables and gear, and then put my guitar on my back in a gig back with back-pack straps. It worked reasonably well. I wish I had a picture of me packing in my gear. My rule was "Only one trip from the car to the venue is allowed." Originally Posted by stoneground
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AB:
Your father is a cool guy!
Coming from a not strictly jazz perspective ... Quilter is the exception. Specifically the little Mini 101 head. I'm experimenting with it now. Got a 1x15 pine cabinet. That plus the Quilter sits next to several favorite tube amps (Allen Encore head plus 12+10 cab, Gries 20 1x12). I've been going back and forth between this setup and the Encore for a week or so. Trying different guitars, practicing jazz with hollowbodies.
This little SS head has virtues beyond just its size and weight, though that is where I started in trying it. It's tube like, yet its own thing too. This pine cab - with the Quilter stuck in the back - is way lighter than comparable tube rigs. Tonally, it remains a compromise in some ways certainly. Depending very much on which guitar we're talking, and the musical mission at hand. Also on how you do or don't modify the input via pedals.
The first trial to me is how quickly I forget what I'm playing through, and just get on with it cause the sound is right. The only two SS amps to make it over that hurdle (in my limited experience) are this Quilter and an old Lab Series L3. The next will be something live. If weight and convenience were not a factor, I'd always be playing tube amps. But weight is a big factor.
MD
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>> Are Jazz Guitarists Getting Lazier at the Expense of Good Tone? <<
The short answer is: no - at least, it's not more related to the changing guitar amp technology than it is to the rationalization of guitar production or the (assumed) loss of certain old knowledge or manual skill among archtop guitar makers.
Some general confusion reigns among jazz guitarists when it comes to "good" tone, or vintage or modern or whatever sound they're actually after! Sometimes, it helps to look and listen how the players, that are not strictly bound to electricity, feel, for example, a horn player like Jesse Davis does:
"It starts first, in every human being, in your inner ear. You have a concept of sound. Everyone on the planet has their own concept of sound, and it all starts inside the ear. It's the way we hum to ourselves in the shower or wherever you do, so as a musician you begin with your own sound, your own concept of sound. Now what happens in most cases - especially we usually start when we're little, you know - so as you grow your concept, the entire world changes based on what your parents teach you, and what other people say is normal, and so, of course, you go through a period where you have many influences in terms of sound. But I'd say what happens more than not is that you hear music and you understand that there are certain people that really make you feel something. So you begin to identify with those particular sounds, and the further along you go, and the more you understand your instrument and you understand music, you begin to develop your own concept of what you want to sound like, and you spend a lot of time working towards that, but you still get your own sound that way. It comes from many years of playing and understanding, that what comes out naturally 100% of the time is your sound.
Now some people don't like what comes out naturally, and they try to change it, they try - but most of the time that's what comes out. So, you know, there are many different factors that determine what your particular sound would be. I mean, for instance, you know when you hear Jackie McLean you know that's not Cannonball Adderley, and you know that not simply because of what they play, but you know based on the sound.
It takes a bit of time, it takes a bit of time... I want to say that in recent years there has been a confusion about your 'own' sound, and a lot of in particular young guys think that having your own sound means playing the way you play. That's not really it, you know, because if you think that way then all you have to do is play something different than somebody else, and you can say 'I have my own sound' - but that's not the determining factor. I mean each sound has its own life: John Coltrane's sound, there's a certain spirit in his sound that no one else can get. Sonny Stitt's sound has a lightness and almost a dancing quality. Cannonball Adderley's sound is just really strong and force mood, but it has a dancing... makes you feel good! So that's what I think having your own sound makings because sound is everything, means everything."Last edited by Ol' Fret; 03-21-2016 at 08:56 AM.
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I loved his Mahavishnu tone. I hate Rosenwinkel's tone. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
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there is certainly a different sonic aesthetic between SS and tube rigs. But it's more than that which makes the difference I believe. Speaker and cabinet configs play a big part in how the sound is sculpted. Having played both categories of amps I find kind of a smeared sound with tubes/open back cabs/ and spring reverbs (used sparingly) and typically too much low end that has to be eq'd out (i.e. 1x12 combo). With SS rigs I seem to get a tighter, punchier sound that is more balanced across the spectrum and more articulate. In some ways it's harder to play with a SS rig because of the clarity to the tone - everything is revealed and there's less room for error. Even my playing style changes when switching between the two.
Lately I've been preferring my SS/tube hybrid rig. Primarily for the tone above all (no compromise here), but the size, portability and versatility all are icing on the cake. I've put some thought and $ into the components which takes more effort that plugging into my DRRI but it was the only way to get the tones I wanted. I'm also not a fan of all SS rigs. I can relate to the sterility and quack that others refer to. Currently I've got a Kingsley Jester (two channel tube pre) with a Strymon Flint, TC delay and an Logidy EPSI going into a Boss L1. Big sound, warm, even and very versatile. Breaks up with picking dynamics, nothing sterile about it. Can be plugged into the house PA without bringing the L1 or straight into a DAW for late night recording. Small pedal board and guitar is all that's needed sometimes. I had someone over with his '69 goldtop les paul with P90s just the other day and it was getting a superb tone!
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