Micing a Jazz Guitar in a Big Band?

**tronus** · 01-20-2016, 08:20 PM

Hey all,

I have a Heritage Sweet 16 that I am loving. Played in the Jazz Studio Orchestra at school for a year using it with no real issues.

I to the thing where I barely roll the volume on until a bit of "acousticy-sounding" signal trickles through.

My guitar has a smallish body but I have still spent a lot of the time just playing without even using the amp for the big band setting. I was curious... What if I just pointed a sm57 or some sort of directional condensor mic at it instead? I could find some sort of mic pre with a quarter inch out and run that into the amp. I could A/B between the mic and pickup for when I needed to solo or play louder single note passages. That way the Freddy Green thing would have that nice acoustic sound.

I have lowered the heck out of my pickup since last semester and will see tomorrow if this helps achieve that sound in the meantime while just running straight into an amp the regular way.

Is this something people do already? Is there some gear/doohickies that they are using to do so? Do they make clip on mic's for acoustic instruments?

Am I just doing the regular way wrong? lol

Thanks so much for your time!

Troy

**docbop** · 01-20-2016, 08:38 PM

Don't even need a pre-amp just a impediance matching transformer.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acces...id^92666429427

**tronus** · 01-20-2016, 08:43 PM

Oh whoa! Thanks a lot docbop, that is awesome!

Originally Posted by docbop

Don't even need a pre-amp just a impediance matching transformer.

Shure A95UF Impedance Matching Transformer | Musician's Friend

**10course** · 01-21-2016, 03:13 AM

This is what I use with great success: PRO 35 Cardioid Condenser Clip-on Instrument Microphone || Audio-Technica US

I have a special "steam punk" like music stand that has the phantom power, impedance adapter, and even a volume control all attached.

I use a volume pedal to turn the pickup up, and then off again after solos. The volume control for the mic attached to the music stand turns the AT Pro 35 up or off with no "pop" like when you run phantom power through an adapted A/B box.

It's not a perfect system because you still have to reach for the volume knob on the music stand, but it gives perfect archtop acoustic sound for bigband comping, and perfect electric sound for solos. It's not too expensive, but is fussy and requires specific microphone positioning.

I clip the mic to the tailpiece with a custom clear plastic bracket that also clips to the tailpiece providing a larger clipping surface. Do not clip to pickguard!! It will make a thumping sound when you hit the pickguard with pick or finger!

My phone is not loading pics to the computer for some reason tonight or I would show you some pics.

**10course** · 01-21-2016, 03:19 AM

Oh yeah, almost forgot: do not sit anywhere near trombones! Their low C gets picked up by the mic something awful!
I cant even describe the sound, but it lights up my whole guitar..

**campusfive** · 01-21-2016, 12:23 PM

I've also been using a clip on for several years now:
Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five, featuring Hilary Alexander - Swing Guitar Blog - Clip-On Mic: Trying Something New in Acoustic Amplification

My own spin on it is to use both a "on/off" switch (such as a Rolls MS111) so I can mute the guitar, and then (if there are available channels) go into an XLR A/B Box (such as a ProCo Panic Button) to switch between two channels, one for rhythm, and one with a bit of a boost for solos or chord melody passages. I'm usually the bandleader, so I just go direct into the board, and generally bring a 10" powered Mackie SRM350 as a monitor, in case the house doesn't have any. If I'm working as a sideman, I run into a small two-channel Mackie mixer, and then on into the SRM350 as a speaker.

From my 13 years of playing acoustic archtop in both small band and big band settings, the clip on mic is a far superior situation compared to putting a mic on a stand. But, having a mute switch is also a really important feature. Most guitar players are used to the ability to simply roll one's volume knob down to mute their guitar between songs. However a mic on a stand can't do that unless it's got a switch on it, and those often cause a bit of popping noise when being used. That was no big deal on many gigs, but there were some where it was a real problem.

Here's a clip of the clip-on mic in action:

"Jamaica Jam"

**campusfive** · 01-21-2016, 12:24 PM

And with any mic, mic position and monitor placement are key.

**KirkP** · 01-21-2016, 12:51 PM

Here's the correct link to campusfive's second video. The guitar sounds great, and seems like a fun band.

**10course** · 01-21-2016, 01:12 PM

@ campusfive: I completely missed the Rolls and Panic Button part of the equation when buying my gear when I originaly read your post on clip on mics.

LOL..,tronus, you can disregard the whole wired music stand contraption I spoke of. It works, but I would much rather use my foot to switch back and forth as campusfive does. ----reaching for my volume knob is tricky and prone to mistakes.

**10course** · 01-22-2016, 02:17 AM

Question for Campusfive: I know that my mic is a cheaper model than the one you are using, but do you notice a difference in feedback sensitivity when using a 17" vs a 16" guitar ?

In my rig, the mic goes through a Roland 120 or the small portable PA. It seems like I can control feedback better with a 16" guitar....In fact, I mostly stopped bringing my 17" to large rooms.

I don't always have feedback, but when it happens for reasons other than me turning the volume up too high by accident after a solo, it's usually the 17".

**campusfive** · 01-22-2016, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by 10course

Question for Campusfive: I know that my mic is a cheaper model than the one you are using, but do you notice a difference in feedback sensitivity when using a 17" vs a 16" guitar ?

In my rig, the mic goes through a Roland 120 or the small portable PA. It seems like I can control feedback better with a 16" guitar....In fact, I mostly stopped bringing my 17" to large rooms.

I don't always have feedback, but when it happens for reasons other than me turning the volume up too high by accident after a solo, it's usually the 17".

My only 17" guitar is my L-12 and it been in the shop for a fretjob for almost two months, so I haven't seen it in a while. I didn't notice the difference you mention, but it theoretically makes sense. Larger cavity, different fundamental. But, given that it should be the mic itself feeding back, I wouldn't think it would make that much difference, except perhaps the frequencies the guitar is putting out there are different.

Yeah, the footswitch is key. The first gig I did with a clip on was at the suggestion of a sound guy who had an extra AT Pro35. It was perfect, unless I put the guitar down at the wrong angle (I'm constantly switching between electric and acoustic). Having a mute switch is really important if you're going to have a high sensitivity mic turned up on stage that can easily be turned in any number of directions.

Christian, I tried a stand mounted condenser, and honestly it was such a hassle. And it really didn't sound significantly better in the context of the whole band. I'm not a guy with a pro sound guy at every gig - frankly, I'm doing my own sound at most gigs. But even at gigs with a decent sound guy, I had lots of problems with a stand mounted condenser (7-8 years of doing it), and in the 2-3 years using the clip on, it's been a far superior playing experience. Life is all about trade offs, and we're all making compromises all the time, but some of them are for good reason. I'd argue the sound from my AT831b is actually great, and that a nicer sounding condenser that is feeding back all the time would be worse.

**KirkP** · 01-22-2016, 02:31 PM

I'm really interested in this thread so I hope the jazz police don't throw it off topic. I've always found it difficult to amplify a natural acoustic tone in a band setting. I finally gave up and just try to approximate it as best I can with a floating pickup. Based on the OP, I think I should give it another try. Thanks campusfive!

**KirkP** · 01-23-2016, 01:29 PM

After checking ebay I thought I should warn others that some sellers are advertising Audio-Technica AT805AW kits, claiming they equivalent to AT831B mics.
According to the AT site, the AT805AW is omni. The AT831B is cardioid. The tone and feedback resistance would be much different.

Also, the AT831 capsule comes in several configurations, some without the power pack and/or without XLR connectors. The AT831B includes a power pack which can be AA battery or phantom powered and and has a standard XLR connector. The power pack also contains the low-frequency roll-off switch, which is a desirable feature for cardioid mics due to proximity effects.
(Campusfive, please correct me if I've got this wrong.)

**christianm77** · 01-23-2016, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

Christian, I tried a stand mounted condenser, and honestly it was such a hassle. And it really didn't sound significantly better in the context of the whole band. I'm not a guy with a pro sound guy at every gig - frankly, I'm doing my own sound at most gigs. But even at gigs with a decent sound guy, I had lots of problems with a stand mounted condenser (7-8 years of doing it), and in the 2-3 years using the clip on, it's been a far superior playing experience. Life is all about trade offs, and we're all making compromises all the time, but some of them are for good reason. I'd argue the sound from my AT831b is actually great, and that a nicer sounding condenser that is feeding back all the time would be worse.

I had a Pro70 and stopped using it when I got a piezo (K&K definity) in it, should probably dig it out as it was pretty good. I do hate having wires dangling around because I am an unspeakable klutz.

The piezo sound isn't as good (though the Pro70 is a bit 'wooly', I haven't tried the AT831b, I presume it's superior) but I play a lot of noisy gigs, functions, parties etc... The sort of thing were they basically want everything as loud as a rock band...

But for swing dance gigs with a respectful audience and a decent sound man, micing works - whether using a clip on or a boom mic...

I do quite like the way you can lean into a boom mike to give you a level boost for solos... Mike technique for guitar.

That reminds me: I remember reading somewhere (perhaps even on your blog) that in the early days they would use the vocal mike to try and give the guitar a bit of a level boost for solo features - is this correct, do you know?

(BTW In case it maybe helpful, here is how the K&K Definity sounds through an AER alpha with the Pro XLR preamp. It's pretty robust from the point of view of feedback. Here I am using a Loar LH600...

destinytot · 01-23-2016, 03:39 PM

A Godin with gooseneck:

**campusfive** · 01-25-2016, 03:05 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I do quite like the way you can lean into a boom mike to give you a level boost for solos... Mike technique for guitar.

That reminds me: I remember reading somewhere (perhaps even on your blog) that in the early days they would use the vocal mike to try and give the guitar a bit of a level boost for solo features - is this correct, do you know?

(BTW In case it maybe helpful, here is how the K&K Definity sounds through an AER alpha with the Pro XLR preamp. It's pretty robust from the point of view of feedback. Here I am using a Loar LH600...

I have to say that your K&K sounds better than I remember them sounding, but now it's making me remember that I have a friend here in LA has a Loar with that pickup in it, and I have played that. My recollection was that it did surprisingly good a chunking rhythm, but that for leads there was still some of the piezo-shrill-glassiness that I so dislike. Thankfully, for most of my contexts, I can use the clip-on. I find the response to more acoustic-like with the clip on.

Also, it's worth noting that I'm not usually using any preamps, and at NAMM I just found out about this preamp that is apparently a must-have tool. Several guys I talked to who use clip-on mics, even the DPA4099 were raving about this preamp. I'm getting one soon and so I can spread the word once I've run it through it's paces.

I can't speak to that point about the guitar player wandering over to the vocal mic, but I suspect ANYBODY who needed a boost back then would have done that.

Finally, I used to be pro using mic technique to get a boost, but I've found, for my purposes at least, that I vastly prefer having the A/B box to switch channels to get a boost. I also like the way that you can EQ the channels differently, and set independent monitor levels.

**Woody Sound** · 01-25-2016, 04:20 PM

For you guys who are doing the mic thing, do you prefer a regular guitar amp, or more of a full-range acoustic guitar amp?

destinytot · 01-25-2016, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

For you guys who are doing the mic thing, do you prefer a regular guitar amp, or more of a full-range acoustic guitar amp?

In the three clips I posted above, the guitar sound on PRIVATE EVENT is coming via clip-on gooseneck condenser into a small Polytone amp, and the other two were with the mic into a PA.

I like the sound via the Polytone more than via the PA, but I've just started using an AER Compact 60 - and I definitely prefer the acoustic amp (for the detail). My little Godin 5th Ave doesn't have much of a tone or much bark to it, but some EQ and gain soon solves that.

(The AER brings out the best in my 18" Sonntag + floater - UNBELIEVABLE - and a Joyo American gives me access to a range of bright, raw and spicy tones.)

**christianm77** · 01-25-2016, 06:48 PM

Originally Posted by campusfive

I have to say that your K&K sounds better than I remember them sounding, but now it's making me remember that I have a friend here in LA has a Loar with that pickup in it, and I have played that. My recollection was that it did surprisingly good a chunking rhythm, but that for leads there was still some of the piezo-shrill-glassiness that I so dislike. Thankfully, for most of my contexts, I can use the clip-on. I find the response to more acoustic-like with the clip on.

Also, it's worth noting that I'm not usually using any preamps, and at NAMM I just found out about this preamp that is apparently a must-have tool. Several guys I talked to who use clip-on mics, even the DPA4099 were raving about this preamp. I'm getting one soon and so I can spread the word once I've run it through it's paces.

I can't speak to that point about the guitar player wandering over to the vocal mic, but I suspect ANYBODY who needed a boost back then would have done that.

Finally, I used to be pro using mic technique to get a boost, but I've found, for my purposes at least, that I vastly prefer having the A/B box to switch channels to get a boost. I also like the way that you can EQ the channels differently, and set independent monitor levels.

I've had a very peculiar experience with the K&K on the Loar which is that I hated it for a long time (as you say peircing and glassy for leads, lot of string squeak), and now mysteriously it sounds better. What may have helped a bit is using the Pro XLR preamp although when I got it I didn't really have a road to Damascus conversion.

I do a pretty hefty treble cut...

BTW, on this gig I was using an A/B switcher to go between the magnetic pickup and the acoustic sound.

This is the dream because I want to be able to cue up some Charlie Christian vibes alongside the acoustic sound, and for this particular band I need to be able to switch between a contemporary Metheny-esque sound and more of a Gypsy Jazz sound... No really:-) It works pretty well, and the Loar is a very obliging platform for experimentation - wouldn't want to be doing that with an old Gibson...

**campusfive** · 01-26-2016, 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by Woody Sound

For you guys who are doing the mic thing, do you prefer a regular guitar amp, or more of a full-range acoustic guitar amp?

Never a conventional guitar amp. Part of what makes "electric guitar" sound "electric" is the limited frequency response of an electric guitar amp. If you're going to mic an acoustic archtop, wouldn't you want it to sound acoustic? - i.e. meaning having a full, transparent frequency response, not the colored sound of an electric amp.

**christianm77** · 01-26-2016, 06:50 AM

I have had feedback trouble using an AER Alpha with my AKG pro 70 - which is part of the reason I don't use it anymore. However a friend of mine used her clip on mic (sorry can't remember what it was) with my amp and she encountered no problems, great sound too.

It might be best to check these things out in the shop.

I also feel like the AER is more designed for piezos and dynamic mics than for condensor mics (I feel like there's a fair amount of compression in the preamp stage).

This might be rubbish of course, but you might be better off investing in something more like an active PA speaker or portable all in one PA solution...

destinytot · 01-26-2016, 07:42 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

I have had feedback trouble using an AER Alpha with my AKG pro 70 - which is part of the reason I don't use it anymore. However a friend of mine used her clip on mic (sorry can't remember what it was) with my amp and she encountered no problems, great sound too.

It might be best to check these things out in the shop.

I also feel like the AER is more designed for piezos and dynamic mics than for condensor mics (I feel like there's a fair amount of compression in the preamp stage).

This might be rubbish of course, but you might be better off investing in something more like an active PA speaker or portable all in one PA solution...

I've got some decent dynamic mics, but I use condensor mics for small-medium live gigs. And I use two on the AER - through a separate mixer - one for vocals and a clip-on for guitar. No problems, and DI-out at larger venues.

destinytot · 01-26-2016, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by campusfive

Never a conventional guitar amp. Part of what makes "electric guitar" sound "electric" is the limited frequency response of an electric guitar amp. If you're going to mic an acoustic archtop, wouldn't you want it to sound acoustic? - i.e. meaning having a full, transparent frequency response, not the colored sound of an electric amp.

Yet the sound via a Polytone is at least pleasant. (For my musical purposes, I'd go so far as to call that sound infinitely preferable to a clean one - for vocals, too - but 'YMMV', as they say.).

I can't explain the characteristic colouring of the Polytone in scientific terms, but I liken it to an elaborate-but-subtle sauce - I think, perhaps, French. It discreetly masks inferior ingredients. (I'm thinking here of my trusty Godin 5th Ave. Thank goodness for spices - and EQ!)

**christianm77** · 01-26-2016, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

I've got some decent dynamic mics, but I use condensor mics for small-medium live gigs. And I use two on the AER - through a separate mixer - one for vocals and a clip-on for guitar. No problems, and DI-out at larger venues.

Must be the Pro 70 then. I suspect it maybe to do with way it's mounted as I don't have a gooseneck, and my friend did.

**BoogieWoogieB** · 01-27-2016, 04:33 PM

I want to give a big shout out to Stout for saving me countless hours and dollar$ by being a great resource for appropriate gear...for my purposes.

I head up a pre-bop (WW1-WW2) all American hot jazz band. I play rhythm and lead guitar, as well as some vocals. I chunk with a Loar 700 through a dynamic mic side mounted (with goose neck) to my heavy duty chrome shaft vocal mic boom. The dynamic mic does ok when a proper sound man is at the board. However, providing vocals and acoustic rhythm guitar requires a stage monitor in close proximity. And of course, with 3-4 horns next to you and a drummer behind you, the battle between instrument volume and feedback begins.

So, after coming across this thread (and campusfive's blog) I just yesterday purchased an AT831b and a unimount/gooseneck. I am really looking forward to more monitor headroom as well as physical mobility. Thank you campusfive!