Micing a Jazz Guitar in a Big Band?

[campusfive]

Glad you might find a more workable solution.

[christianm77]

I've been using the Loar with the K&K definity again over the past couple of weeks and decided it's a bit pants with the K&K Pure XLR after all.

I'm going to try it with a LR Baggs Para DI, but to be honest the mic solutions are looking tempting. How's the feedback rejection? I play on some small stages and the amp is often closer to the instrument than I would ideally like.

[BoogieWoogieB]

Switching to a mini condenser (at831b) seems to have a learning curve and is a totally different game. I just dove in head first at my gig the other day without a prior test run and encountered a couple issues/changes that I need to adjust to. I would love your feedback (no pun intended).

Feedback: The mini-condenser provides a much fuller and richer sound than a dynamic mic (nothing new here). I'm needing to figure out the safe distance and angle of the mic from the monitor. Also, the mic's roll-off switch. Do you roll-off the low frequencies? I tend to like a heavier chunk tone with more lows and mids than highs in my rhythm playing. I'm wondering how you approach this issue?

Mic placement: Have you found the sweet spot on where to place your at831b? I positioned mine about 1/2 an inch hovering above the bottom end of the f-hole. Do you place yours over the hole or on the wood just above? How far do you place your windscreen from the actual wood?

The main pro of the dynamic mic (mounted separately from the guitar) is that you have much more control over your dynamics. If you want to hear less guitar you just back off/away. With the mounted condenser your volume level is constant unless you lighten up on the strumming. The last thing you want to do is change your right hand technique when playing rhythm.

I appreciate any input you are willing to give

[destinytot]

Switching to a mini condenser (at831b) seems to have a learning curve and is a totally different game. I just dove in head first at my gig the other day without a prior test run and encountered a couple issues/changes that I need to adjust to. I would love your feedback (no pun intended).

Feedback: The mini-condenser provides a much fuller and richer sound than a dynamic mic (nothing new here). I'm needing to figure out the safe distance and angle of the mic from the monitor. Also, the mic's roll-off switch. Do you roll-off the low frequencies? I tend to like a heavier chunk tone with more lows and mids than highs in my rhythm playing. I'm wondering how you approach this issue?

Mic placement: Have you found the sweet spot on where to place your at831b? I positioned mine about 1/2 an inch hovering above the bottom end of the f-hole. Do you place yours over the hole or on the wood just above? How far do you place your windscreen from the actual wood?

The main pro of the dynamic mic (mounted separately from the guitar) is that you have much more control over your dynamics. If you want to hear less guitar you just back off/away. With the mounted condenser your volume level is constant unless you lighten up on the strumming. The last thing you want to do is change your right hand technique when playing rhythm.

I appreciate any input you are willing to give

The tone and volume of my acoustic aren't great, but they're enough to work with.

Personally, I literally jam the windshield into the front low f-hole, use the attenuator to roll off the low end, and use as little gain as possible so strumming works against resistance, with EQ set to raised treble and mids but lowered bass.

[campusfive]

Switching to a mini condenser (at831b) seems to have a learning curve and is a totally different game. I just dove in head first at my gig the other day without a prior test run and encountered a couple issues/changes that I need to adjust to. I would love your feedback (no pun intended).

Feedback: The mini-condenser provides a much fuller and richer sound than a dynamic mic (nothing new here). I'm needing to figure out the safe distance and angle of the mic from the monitor. Also, the mic's roll-off switch. Do you roll-off the low frequencies? I tend to like a heavier chunk tone with more lows and mids than highs in my rhythm playing. I'm wondering how you approach this issue?

Mic placement: Have you found the sweet spot on where to place your at831b? I positioned mine about 1/2 an inch hovering above the bottom end of the f-hole. Do you place yours over the hole or on the wood just above? How far do you place your windscreen from the actual wood?

The main pro of the dynamic mic (mounted separately from the guitar) is that you have much more control over your dynamics. If you want to hear less guitar you just back off/away. With the mounted condenser your volume level is constant unless you lighten up on the strumming. The last thing you want to do is change your right hand technique when playing rhythm.

I appreciate any input you are willing to give

1) I clip on to the tailpiece, and put the mic (or rather the end of the windscreen) about 1" above the top, pointing down into the top, in the area behind the bridge. I have always avoided mic'ing the f-holes, because all you get is boomy, feedback-y low end. Sometimes the gooseneck gets a little ... flacid, so you may need to readjust to make sure the mic is about an inch off the top. Plus, once you start getting less than an inch off the top, the proximity effect starts adding a ton of extra bass.

2) Speaking of low end - there's really nothing but boom-y, unnatural sub-bass below the cutoff for the bass rolloff, so I always have that engaged. Also, I always use any lowpass filter on the board to dump anything below 80k.



3) Ideal monitor placement is to your left on the same axis as the neck/headstock. Being the bandleader, I can generally place myself on stage left.

4) Dynamics - with a clip on, I can get plenty of dynamic range while playing rhythm, just from alternating my playing. Of course, to make a solo pop out, that's more difficult. But, that's why I use an A/B box to send the signal to two different channels, giving myself the ability to pop-out for a solo, or a Reuss-style chord melody interlude, without depending on the sound guy to catch it. I used a mic on a stand for YEARS, and never had very much luck with leaning into the mic for more volume. I'd get it, but not reliably or consistently. Plus, you would be amazed how much small movements can change how the mic picks you up even when you're just trying to sit still and play rhythm.

5) EQ - I'm gonna be honest here: a clip on AT-831b, properly placed, directly into a powered speaker, sounds so much better and more natural than any kind of piezo/contact pickup, that I'd never go back. That said, almost everybody I talked to at NAMM was raving about the Headway preamps, and guessing I'm going to be trying one out.

FINAL THOUGHT: There is NO perfect solution - there's always a chance for feedback, or a bad sound guy, or whatever. But in the 13 years I've been playing an acoustic archtop in my own bands, and in others, the clip-on lavalier-style mic has been the best solution, all things considered. Other components, such as a "mute-switch" pedal, and an A/B box were key parts of the scheme, so without them, you may have problems. I've tried contact pickups/piezo pickups, dynamic mics on a stand, and even condenser mics on a stand. All of them had more problems, and at least, for me, worse problems, than the set up I've got now. Frankly, the only remaining problem has become the relatively short and thin, and thus easily tangled, cable running from the AT831b to it's battery pack. I may simply have someone replace the cable with a longer one, or perhaps I might step up and get a DPA 4099. People like Julian Lage and my friend Tak Nakayama (from the Sweet Hollywiians) use that in combination with the "cello" mount, and it ends up being the best sounding amplified acoustic archtop I've ever heard.

[BoogieWoogieB]

1) I clip on to the tailpiece, and put the mic (or rather the end of the windscreen) about 1" above the top, pointing down into the top, in the area behind the bridge. I have always avoided mic'ing the f-holes, because all you get is boomy, feedback-y low end. Sometimes the gooseneck gets a little ... flacid, so you may need to readjust to make sure the mic is about an inch off the top. Plus, once you start getting less than an inch off the top, the proximity effect starts adding a ton of extra bass.

2) Speaking of low end - there's really nothing but boom-y, unnatural sub-bass below the cutoff for the bass rolloff, so I always have that engaged. Also, I always use any lowpass filter on the board to dump anything below 80k.



3) Ideal monitor placement is to your left on the same axis as the neck/headstock. Being the bandleader, I can generally place myself on stage left.

4) Dynamics - with a clip on, I can get plenty of dynamic range while playing rhythm, just from alternating my playing. Of course, to make a solo pop out, that's more difficult. But, that's why I use an A/B box to send the signal to two different channels, giving myself the ability to pop-out for a solo, or a Reuss-style chord melody interlude, without depending on the sound guy to catch it. I used a mic on a stand for YEARS, and never had very much luck with leaning into the mic for more volume. I'd get it, but not reliably or consistently. Plus, you would be amazed how much small movements can change how the mic picks you up even when you're just trying to sit still and play rhythm.

5) EQ - I'm gonna be honest here: a clip on AT-831b, properly placed, directly into a powered speaker, sounds so much better and more natural than any kind of piezo/contact pickup, that I'd never go back. That said, almost everybody I talked to at NAMM was raving about the Headway preamps, and guessing I'm going to be trying one out.

FINAL THOUGHT: There is NO perfect solution - there's always a chance for feedback, or a bad sound guy, or whatever. But in the 13 years I've been playing an acoustic archtop in my own bands, and in others, the clip-on lavalier-style mic has been the best solution, all things considered. Other components, such as a "mute-switch" pedal, and an A/B box were key parts of the scheme, so without them, you may have problems. I've tried contact pickups/piezo pickups, dynamic mics on a stand, and even condenser mics on a stand. All of them had more problems, and at least, for me, worse problems, than the set up I've got now. Frankly, the only remaining problem has become the relatively short and thin, and thus easily tangled, cable running from the AT831b to it's battery pack. I may simply have someone replace the cable with a longer one, or perhaps I might step up and get a DPA 4099. People like Julian Lage and my friend Tak Nakayama (from the Sweet Hollywiians) use that in combination with the "cello" mount, and it ends up being the best sounding amplified acoustic archtop I've ever heard.

Thanks for the incredible detailed response! There is no perfect situation. I've tried using transducers...I do not recommend anyone waist their time with them. I don't know how Charlie Christian was able to get away with using an electric guitar for rhythm and make it sound so good. Getting a good electric sound on rhythm seems to be an absolute mystery to me. Anyway, back to micing acoustic archtops...I think most of it is going to depend on the guy running sound. If the sound guy is not familiar with how to place the rhythm guitar volume within a horn band it's not going to matter much what is used. Most unfamiliar sound guys end up placing the rhythm guitar volume too loud through the system. How do you normally tell such unfamiliar sound guys to place the guitar in relation to the bass? I've been tempted to just go complete old school and not mic the guitar at all. Of course that requires beating the hell out of it to get projection (or have a band that is somehow able to play with soft enough dynamics that everything blends well). Any suggested pointers I can pass on to these unfamiliar sound men? Thanks a million!

[christianm77]

OK, I just got the AT831b today, which I'm using with my Pro 70 as I had it lying around. The sound through my AER is very good a bit bass heavy perhaps and a little liable to feedback so I am skeptical about how useful it will be on anything but the quietest gigs TBH. But I will try it!

I'm thinking about using the mic as a front of house feed primarily, perhaps using a different signal for my onstage sound....

Will let you know how I get on. I'm thinking if I can make this setup work I may invest in a DPA down the line. I might try my cellists if she lets me.

I'm not quite visualising how the cello mount works with a guitar...

[campusfive]

Bass heavy? Where are you placing the mic?

[christianm77]

Bass heavy? Where are you placing the mic?

Basically anywhere. Soundboard above F hole scroll is probably best sound. Actually down the F hole is pretty muddy even with full bass cut. Backed off by about by a few cm's is very nice with full bass cut.

Obviously want to maximise the signal from the guitar as much as possible...

This may well be down to the mic, or possibly the amp. I have a feeling this set up will work a lot better with PA.

Everything needs bass roll off...

[christianm77]

Actually a few cm above from the F hole scroll with a savage bass cut seems the most stable sound so far...

[BoogieWoogieB]

Basically anywhere. Soundboard above F hole scroll is probably best sound. Actually down the F hole is pretty muddy even with full bass cut. Backed off by about by a few cm's is very nice with full bass cut.

Obviously want to maximise the signal from the guitar as much as possible...

This may well be down to the mic, or possibly the amp. I have a feeling this set up will work a lot better with PA.

Everything needs bass roll off...

I can't imagine getting the right sound from this type of mic going thru an amp (esp. with an American archtop). I'm convinced that the best application for this mic is to go thru a PA, mainly if you are micing other instruments in the ensemble. The drawback is that your projected sound is entirely dependent upon the sound guy. Have the bass rolled off on your end and everything balanced at the board.

I think with this mic the further away you can position it from the wood the better (at least an inch or more). In between the strings and the f hole with the mic slightly directed towards the f hole. I believe this to work best for rhythm application. If you are wanting to play single note solos on an acoustic (American archtop) I would not recommend this type of mic. Although, I'm sure others can get it to work to their liking.

[christianm77]

I can't imagine getting the right sound from this type of mic going thru an amp (esp. with an American archtop). I'm convinced that the best application for this mic is to go thru a PA, mainly if you are micing other instruments in the ensemble. The drawback is that your projected sound is entirely dependent upon the sound guy. Have the bass rolled off on your end and everything balanced at the board.

I think with this mic the further away you can position it from the wood the better (at least an inch or more). In between the strings and the f hole with the mic slightly directed towards the f hole. I believe this to work best for rhythm application. If you are wanting to play single note solos on an acoustic (American archtop) I would not recommend this type of mic. Although, I'm sure others can get it to work to their liking.

Well I'll probably be buying a small PA in the near future :-)

[campusfive]

If you're having to dump all the bass, your mic position is all wrong.
I always have the under 80hz HFP engaged, but I don't have to adjust the bass EQ, and certainly not dump all of it.
The proximity effect can add way too much bass if the mic is too close to the top, and there's a ton of air moving out of the f-holes, and that's WAY too much bass. Keep at least an inch off the top, and half between the high-E and the f-hole. That's more or less where I put mine.

An AER isn't exactly a "guitar amp", it's a full-range speaker set up, so I don't think there's any problem with it.

But, like mic placement, the bigger issue with using an amp is placement.

[christianm77]

If you're having to dump all the bass, your mic position is all wrong.
I always have the under 80hz HFP engaged, but I don't have to adjust the bass EQ, and certainly not dump all of it.
The proximity effect can add way too much bass if the mic is too close to the top, and there's a ton of air moving out of the f-holes, and that's WAY too much bass. Keep at least an inch off the top, and half between the high-E and the f-hole. That's more or less where I put mine.

An AER isn't exactly a "guitar amp", it's a full-range speaker set up, so I don't think there's any problem with it.

But, like mic placement, the bigger issue with using an amp is placement.

I'll give that a go, thanks for the advice... I have experimented with a few different positions, but I've tended to keep the mic close to the guitar to try and minimise feedback... I did notice that backing off did produce the nicest results....

[campusfive]

The closer it is, the more the top can reflect all the other instruments into the mic. It's counterintuitive, but there's definitely a need for some distance. And again, placement of the speakers/amp is important too.

[KirkP]

Since that's a cardioid (directional) mic, you might want to read about proximity effect. This article shows the effect for a typical cardioid:

http://www.broadcastbrazil.com/colum...l-littwin.html

It's like having a mid-bass control centered around 200 Hz that gets turned way up when you approach much less than a foot or so. Put that too close to the opening of a resonant chamber and you're inviting feedback.

AT recommends the AT831B for flattop guitar. Their mount positions the mic a few inches away and at an oblique angle to the sound hole. Perhaps a similar oblique orientation would work for archtop?

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/re...t831b_ss_e.pdf

[christianm77]

Since that's a cardioid (directional) mic, you might want to read about proximity effect. This article shows the effect for a typical cardioid:

Daniel Littwin | Broadcast Brazil Column

It's like having a mid-bass control centered around 200 Hz that gets turned way up when you approach much less than a foot or so. Put that too close to the opening of a resonant chamber and you're inviting feedback.

AT recommends the AT831B for flattop guitar. Their mount positions the mic a few inches away and at an oblique angle to the sound hole. Perhaps a similar oblique orientation would work for archtop?

http://www.audio-technica.com/cms/re...t831b_ss_e.pdf

I have that rig. It doesn't work very well on archtop and is worse for feedback. I think this jalopy is a bit better.

[campusfive]

Here's an example of my rig on a sideman gig. AT831b (an inch off the top, and midway between the f-holes and the high-E), into the Rolls MS111 on/off switch, into an ART mic pre (just so I'd have a volume knob w/in reach), into a Mackie SRM350 behind me on the floor, tilted up.

I bought a little two-channel Mackie mixer, so I can put my A/B switch in after the Rolls, and then run into two channels. Theoretically, whenever the Headway preamp arrives, that would take the place of the mixer, since it has two channels.

[campusfive]

Here are some photos from this weekend's gigs.
It got pretty loud, since there were a couple hundred people there, and the room was super reflective. I put in earplugs for the first time in a while. The first night we did our 7-piece band ("The Campus Five"), and the second night was the full big band. I kept thinking I was going to need to switch to my Epiphone Deluxe, but I had plenty of volume with the L-5 even with the bigger band. (Here's a short video a friend posted of the Campus Five's finale: https://www.facebook.com/shesha/vide...8886288134409/)

[christianm77]

OK I gave this a go yesterday, as recommend by the kind and detailed information given by Jonathon, and the feedback tolerance on the Pro 70 was pretty poor - to the point where the bandleader forbade me to use it ever again haha...

And this was with an actual house PA system... Lots of microphonic feedback.

I might experiment with another mic, but TBH my experimentation has suggested to me that for the type of gigs I am doing, micing the guitar is a pain in the bum. I want something that plugs in and goes.

I think for loud gigs he's going to get magnetic pickup or macaferri (I can get a acceptable, feedback resistant sound) and that's it.

For rhythm guitar with a big band requiring a small lift, it's probably fine, but I wouldn't want to risk it in some of the rooms I've had to play in.

[campusfive]

Here are a couple of examples of my set up from our recent trip to Korea. For some reason, I never bothered to set up my whole dual-channel a/b box thing, so it's just one channel with my on/off switch in between.

"Savoy Blip" - Guitar intro, rhythm work, and a chord-melody solo on the bridge of the 2nd chorus

"Egyptian Fantasy" - Guitar noodling up front; a guitar solo, and a guitar solo figures in between the ensembles toward the end:

"Undecided" - Mostly rhythm work, but a good example of how switch between electric and acoustic:

[docdosco]

Hey all,

I have a Heritage Sweet 16 that I am loving. Played in the Jazz Studio Orchestra at school for a year using it with no real issues.

I to the thing where I barely roll the volume on until a bit of "acousticy-sounding" signal trickles through.

My guitar has a smallish body but I have still spent a lot of the time just playing without even using the amp for the big band setting. I was curious... What if I just pointed a sm57 or some sort of directional condensor mic at it instead? I could find some sort of mic pre with a quarter inch out and run that into the amp. I could A/B between the mic and pickup for when I needed to solo or play louder single note passages. That way the Freddy Green thing would have that nice acoustic sound.

I have lowered the heck out of my pickup since last semester and will see tomorrow if this helps achieve that sound in the meantime while just running straight into an amp the regular way.

Is this something people do already? Is there some gear/doohickies that they are using to do so? Do they make clip on mic's for acoustic instruments?

Am I just doing the regular way wrong? lol

Thanks so much for your time!

Troy

I didn't read all the solutions offered but the following is good to know. I have a Y cable with an impedance matching circuit so I can plug a dynamic mic and the guitar in the Y cable and then into one input on the amp and have both equal in volume. I bought the cable at Sam Ash for under $20.

Those familiar with Y cables know that a mic and guitar plugged into a regular Y cable will not match the volume. One will be loud, the other barely audible. Cool solution is the impedance matching Y cable for vocals and guitar into a one input amp. The idea, of course, is the same for any mic/guitar in situation.