Putting a fingers tailpiece on my Epi Broadway Elitist

**339 in june** · 01-18-2016, 09:30 AM

Just a reminder :

For a given string gauge, for a given pitch on a given guitar, there's only one tension possible.

If you change tension on a string, you change the pitch.

(PTChris, I miss you !)

**Greentone** · 01-18-2016, 09:38 AM

339,

Most folks have attributed the long headstock = tone effect on the Super-400/Super-V/Johnny Smith to the additional headstock mass.

**GNAPPI** · 01-18-2016, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Gnappi, pkirk is correct in saying the finger tailpiece was not designed as a fine tuner. It adjusts the tension the string has on the neck. You may like using it for that function and that's fine, but it's not what it was designed to do.

I guess you're wrong? This is a double post but there is a difference between "opinion" and facts and facts say you are incorrect...

From the PATENT!!!

"These adjustment screws can also be used as a fine tuning mechanism for adjusting the pitch of each string."

Another bit from the Gibson LeGrand spec page:

http://www.gibson.com/Products/Elect.../Features.aspx

"The instrument initially carried the L-5 tailpiece, but after 1979 was given its own six-finger unit with individual fine-tuning adjustment screws for each string"

So, I use it this way and whatever was said about the intent is pretty much moot?

Unless you all want to argue with the patent AND Gibson as well as me?

**339 in june** · 01-18-2016, 09:58 AM

My opinion is that you don't have to necessarily believe all that is written in a patent.

Patent publishing is a way of communication for companies, also towards competitors and marketing.

Of course you can use the screws on the fingers to fine tune your guitar, it changes the tension in your string so that you can reach the correct pitch (and be in tune )

**GNAPPI** · 01-18-2016, 10:19 AM

Originally Posted by 339 in june

My opinion is that you don't have to necessarily believe all that is written in a patent.

Patent publishing is a way of communication for companies, also towards competitors and marketing.

Having written a number of patent applications and proof read a number of others for their claims your opinion on patents is inconsistent with their reality. Patents are worth billions of dollars and they MUST be believed, and understood.

A patent contains "claims" that are designed specifically to cover the intent of an invention sufficiently to prevent reverse engineering it thereby disallowing another maker from coming out with a similar product that does the same thing circumnavigating a patent. It also assures the patent holders legal rights to damages in the event the patent is violated, AND it also allows the patent holder to license or outright sell their invention.

Before submitting a new patent application, patent attorneys search the patent office for similar already granted patents, if no such patent is extant, the new patent is submitted. If there is a "hole" in the existing patent the new patent is typically massaged to sort of "re-invent" the new submission. If there is no hole, the "new" invention dies.

PS. If the verbiage:

"These adjustment screws can also be used as a fine tuning mechanism for adjusting the pitch of each string."

Were not in the patent, a subsequent patent application for a "Guitar string tuning device for the guitar tailpiece" WOULD have likely been granted circumnavigating the finger tailpiece patent!

**icr** · 01-18-2016, 10:24 AM

Those tailpieces are mostly cosmetic. Other than pitch, extremes of adjustment of the arms create inaudible changes in the tone and undetectable changes in playability (at least on the HR Fusion III).

**GNAPPI** · 01-18-2016, 10:29 AM

Originally Posted by icr

Those tailpieces are mostly cosmetic. Other than pitch, extremes of adjustment of the arms create inaudible changes in the tone and undetectable changes in playability (at least on the HR Fusion III).

You're absolutely correct!

**339 in june** · 01-18-2016, 10:45 AM

So, what ?

**KirkP** · 01-18-2016, 01:58 PM

I've never used a fingers tailpiece, but looking at it from a mechanical viewpoint, it's use of levers that change the break angle would be less stable at fine tuning than devices that pull on the end of the string.

I'll bet it would have a great effect on how the sections on string between the bridge and tailpiece resonate. It might serve to dampen those vibrations and/or allow those resonances to be tuned. Those sympathetic vibrations will effect tone of the instrument. My Gibson L-7 has a heavy metal tailpiece that allows those sections of strings to resonate too strongly for my taste, so I used felt as a damper. With a fingered tailpiece or wooden tailpliece this might not have been necessary.

**KirkP** · 01-18-2016, 02:02 PM

I've never used a fingers tailpiece, but looking at it from a mechanical viewpoint, use of levers that change the break angle would seem to be less stable at fine tuning than devices that pull on the end of the string.

I'll bet the fingers would have a great effect on how the sections on string between the bridge and tailpiece resonate. It might serve to dampen those vibrations and/or allow those resonances to be tuned. Those sympathetic vibrations will effect tone of the instrument.

My Gibson L-7 has a heavy metal tailpiece that allows those sections of strings to resonate too strongly for my taste, so I use felt as a damper. With a fingered tailpiece or wooden tailpiece this might not have been necessary.

This is all speculation. I'd like to know if those who've used one have found any of this to be true.

**setemupjoe** · 01-18-2016, 03:41 PM

I've owned a Super V for over 30 years. I have fiddled with the tailpiece to discover what differences in tension it made on the neck when the break angle was at its most extreme and when it was at its least. I understand this is subjective on my part but it did seem to make a distinct difference. The more of a break angle, the firmer the strings felt to me. Conversely the strings felt lighter when the break angle was less.
I don't understand the physics of it or if this is correct but I did feel a real change in tension.

**roegtr** · 01-18-2016, 04:58 PM

Hey guys, thanks for the input on this topic

At this point I'm leaning towards dropping the idea since I may sell the Broadway for a smaller jazz guitar, like the es175 or the new es275. However, I do think the tailpiece makes a difference in string tension, which in turn will alter the sound and feel of the guitar. Wonder how (God forbid) the Gibson L5 would sound with a frequensator...

**neatomic** · 01-18-2016, 05:23 PM

think twice..that epi broadway is good for your western swing side...ah ha(wills)

nice guitar

cheers

**Klatu** · 01-18-2016, 05:26 PM

Don't get rid of your Broadway. It suits you.

**Klatu** · 01-31-2016, 11:33 AM

What's the word on the upgrade? Did you go through with it? Please tell us you're not getting rid of that beautiful instrument.

**GNAPPI** · 01-31-2016, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by KIRKP

I've never used a fingers tailpiece, but looking at it from a mechanical viewpoint, use of levers that change the break angle would seem to be less stable at fine tuning than devices that pull on the end of the string.

I'll bet the fingers would have a great effect on how the sections on string between the bridge and tailpiece resonate. It might serve to dampen those vibrations and/or allow those resonances to be tuned. Those sympathetic vibrations will effect tone of the instrument.

This is all speculation. I'd like to know if those who've used one have found any of this to be true.

Actually they are a VERY exacting method of fine tuning. The key is setting the fingers up right when you tune the strings after a new set breaks in or you run out of adjustment on the fingers.

Try this, tune up, and move a string out of the cut in a TOM or wood bridge just a hair, the string goes out of tune just moving it that little bit no? So the finger TP does the same thing in a different direction.

On my digital tuner a string will go if tuned to a low E with the string finger bottomed out to a D# if the finger is raised to the top of its travel. The total travel distance is a bit over 1/8"

As far as any vibration dampening goes, my finger TP is on a slightly lighter and deeper Howard Roberts Semi (7lb 12oz. 2 3/8" thick) than my 137 (8lb 9oz. 2 1/8" thick) and even though the body styles are similar the construction of the bodies are totally different internally and the 137 has a stop TP. I think any resonance difference in the HRF is more due to the body construction than anything else.

I really don't know because I don't have a lab and vibration sensing technology available so I think that anyone with an opinion, that opinion would realistically have to be anecdotal. Gibson and Heritage may know something we don't, they both use or have used them on select (read higher end) models.

**JazzNote** · 01-31-2016, 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by neatomic

length depends on angle

take a tele guitar..low e tuning peg is very close to nut..

wind the E string with one wrap so that string sits high off nut to tuner..no angle

now get a string and wrap it few times low on E string post..increases angle from nut to tuner

huge difference!!

cheers

How would you describe the difference?

**roegtr** · 01-31-2016, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

What's the word on the upgrade? Did you go through with it? Please tell us you're not getting rid of that beautiful instrument.

I ended up not getting the tailpiece after all. Nor did I sell the Broadway. I've had it for such a long time now so I don't think I can get myself to let her go. It is a really good looking and great sounding guitar.

On a different note, I had the tailpiece shortened on my Gibson es390. It came equipped with the long trapeze tp from Gibson and I think it looks out of place on such a small body. I had my guitar tech cut it about 1 inch and it does make a difference in tone and feel. With more tension, there's a little less brightness. Another interesting note is that a slight "dead spot" on the F note, moved up to G... :-/
I do like the guitar better this way.

**roegtr** · 02-01-2016, 07:18 AM

Here's a pic with the shorter tailpiece:
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/75...771681a1d6.jpg

**roegtr** · 02-01-2016, 07:19 AM

Here's a pic with the original tailpiece:
http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/75...4c8a8b110d.jpg

**kenbennett** · 02-01-2016, 08:47 AM

Originally Posted by setemupjoe

Gnappi, pkirk is correct in saying the finger tailpiece was not designed as a fine tuner. It adjusts the tension the string has on the neck. You may like using it for that function and that's fine, but it's not what it was designed to do.

Close, but really,as long as the string is tuned to the correct pitch, the tension on the neck stays exactly the same.

The tension that changes is actually the downward pressure of the string on the bridge. The greater the angle of the string breaking across the bridge, the more is the downward pressure.

Up to a point, more downward pressure on the bridge means better transfer of acoustical energy through the bridge and into the top, generally improving the tone in a couple of ways. It can also increase volume. I say up to a point because too much downward pressure on the top inhibits its ability to vibrate freely which is detrimental to volume if not tone as well.

The fingers tailpiece is a way to get the optimum break angle at the bridge for each string individually.