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Since I am the seller, I feel I need to speak up for myself. I bought this GE from Music Go Round in Wilkes Barre, PA a couple weeks ago. I had been watching it for quite a while and since I had owned a GE in the past I decided to pull the trigger on this one. I have owned many archtops and it takes me about 30 seconds of assessment to determine if I will connect with it or not. I did not connect with this one. It immediately went on both ebay and Reverb. There are two points to consider at this particular time. Number One, why I didn't return it to MGR. My response to that is that I have been buying and selling all my life and on ebay for almost 17 years, and "I don't connect with it" is not a legitimate reason for a return. If I thought it was defective or damaged and not disclosed, I would have returned it. Just because I don't like something is not a reason for them to re-stock it. I wouldn't want it done to me so I won't do it so someone else. Number Two, the issue of the sunken top. I am aware that some X braced archtops do sink. Why I didn't take the five seconds to look closer at it, I can't account for. When it arrived I saw the bridge was quite high and my first thought was elation that it had a good neck set. I don't have any excuse for my claim that is had a good arch in the top. If I had taken a second and turned it sideways I would have seen it and obviously at that point (inside of 48 hours) I could have returned it to MGR with no issues. I was notified by the buyer immediately upon delivery that there was a problem and I immediately authorized the return and will issue a refund immediately on it's arrival. I emailed him a prepaid priority mail label with the guitar insured for $2000. I take full accountability for my negligence in the sagging top and I want to assure all of you that I am not a crook. Last night I fired off an angry email to the MGR store in PA, for what little bit of good it will do. I'm not passing the buck; as stated, I take full blame for this transaction, but the MGR store should have disclosed it, just as they would the need for a neck reset, lifting bridge, electronics that don't work.... it never should have gone this far and I would like to publicly apologize to the buyer for getting his hopes up about this guitar. I assure you, it was not my intention and I will be much more careful from now on.
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01-15-2016 10:20 AM
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Thanks Joe. It's not a big deal. It was an impulse buy and I never get my hopes up too high on gear until I've received and examined it.
Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
The seller was responsive though he initially told me I had to ship it back on my own dime. I had to tell him that's not Reverb's policy. Reverb has been very good with their customer service. I talked to somebody on the phone and then re-confirmed the return shipping through chat. I'm pretty sure Paypal makes the buyer return ship on his/her own dime.
I don't think I've ever had to return a guitar before and I've been fortunate enough to find 3 other amazing archtops in the past few weeks.
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That's for sure ! While I have seen it mentioned, the guitar in question was usually '30's not a 1991 ! Originally Posted by Woody Sound
FWIW I bought a '30's L-7, and it had all the sunken top warning signs - - the dip in the center, the bridge mod that someone had started fitting, which was shipped loose. I was told of this by the dealer. The biggest selling feature - accurately stated - was that it was as clean as the seller said it was. But when I first saw it, I was still ready to ship it back and dealer just said: " Just find someone locally - -a luthier who can look inside -- then if you still don't want it ok ".
So I took it to the luthier who's now 'my guy' and he gave it a good look inside with a light and mirror. He and I determined that yes the ( 'X' ) braces and top had settled a little but the braces and top were still attached, uncracked and solid, so it was a keeper.
It is by far the best sounding guitar I own.
I learned at this Forum that there were double dips in the '30's L-7's and maybe others Gibson models from that era..
I have to believe these can ' settle ' but still not necessarily 'sink'. Maybe one man's settle is another man's sink. But I can provider photo's, if need be, and also - - it has gotten no worse in the ten plus years I've owned it.
I guess I was a little more accommodating because it's a '1936, rather than 1991.
Good Luck !Last edited by Dennis D; 01-15-2016 at 04:08 PM.
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How is a sunken top repaired when there are no pickup holes & only f-holes to gain access to the braces?
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Dang
If that was my guitar I would have just continued on playing it ... blissfully unaware
At least until I took it into a repair shop and they let me know what kind of work was needed
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Nah, you would have noticed. At least seeing the bridge cranked up so high. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
Dang
If that was my guitar I would have just continued on playing it ... blissfully unaware
At least until I took it into a repair shop and they let me know what kind of work was needed
The seller is joining the forum to post. Waiting on moderation.
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Post from seller just approved (#26):
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/guita...tml#post606132
I hope you can get it fixed. A member recommended giving Heritage a call.
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I'd be curious to see how that looks Originally Posted by Dennis D
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The bridge is cranked up pretty high on my 1992 Golden Eagle as well and its top is in fine shape. It might not be a bad idea to take it to a luthier so that they can properly document the issues with the guitar.
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ksdaddy=
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I believe you have to remove the back(?) Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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Hi KSDaddy, Originally Posted by ksdaddy
Welcome to the forum.
What happened here sucks for you and HeyNow.
We didn't think badly of you from the start. Most of us thought (based on the photo's) that you wouldn't have noticed. I can honestly say I wouldn't have noticed unless the guitar had something clanking around on the inside and had a massive dead spot. Its just not something that most non Luthier types tend to look for.
You did the right thing for HeyNow. Now we hope the store owner does right by you. Take it back and see what they will do for you. Honesty follows honesty. Good follows good. They don't want an unhappy customer and they certainly don't want the 42,000 members of this forum to know that they screwed you..
Keep us posted.
Thanks, Joe D.
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Sorry for the size of the photo's. Originally Posted by HeyNow
The bridge is solid - not violin style w/ feet. It looks to be 1 in. OAH, and the lower base is approx. 3/8. I don't know which bridge design was standard in the '30's- - the violin or solid.
The 'settle' amount looks to be maybe 3/8 from level - although I don't really know what the original measurement would have been.
Hope this helps.
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Whoaaa that's a big dip! Originally Posted by Dennis D
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If the guitar was bought from MGR but a "couple weeks ago" and purchased on a credit card I'd think it would still qualify for a return, by credit card standards, no questions asked.
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I suppose it is. Originally Posted by HeyNow
But - in a heartbeat - I'd let you put a dip just like that in my '54 L-7 cutaway, if it'd sound like this one when you were finished !
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I hope your Reverb transaction goes well. I just got a partial refund for my cracked-in-shipping L-7 that came from Reverb.com. There was not any hassle or bad feelings on either side of the transaction. Refund brought the price to $1500 which is great with me as it is frequently double that price or more to get into L-5 territory which was my goal. BTW I didn't post yet in my thread but the McCarty pickup parts cost $80, so essentially $1580 for a L-7E.
So, the Eagle in question might be worthwhile to own at the right price.
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I can't tell from the pix whether the top sinks on both sides or not. Originally Posted by wengr
This may sound pretty wild, but there's a chance the guitar left the factory in that condition. The presentation guitars were sometimes donated to charities or used as gifts. They were not sold commercially.
If the bracing is fine and it plays well, my guess is that it's stable.
If you send it to Heritage you may not see it for months. I'd suggest taking it to a local and reputable archtop luthier to be examined.
A mirror exam would be helpful. A fiberoptic scope would be better.
If the bracing is cracked or the glue has failed, it can likely be repaired. But if it appears stable, that guitar would probably outlast you.Last edited by Marty Grass; 01-15-2016 at 07:29 PM.
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Guitar is in hand, refund completed.
I went inside with a light and mirror. No damage to the braces. No bad glue joints, no cracks. Thump on the top, no rattles.
However.
I'm jumping to the punchline, but I believe this guitar is dry. I slathered some oil on the board and it is drinking it as fast as I can apply it. The top looks and feels like corduroy. There were a couple packs of dessicant in the case, which I'm sure didn't help matters. I don't know how the top hasn't split wide open
I have the strings off it (unrelated). One of the Grover Imperials had broken and the previous owner replaced ONE. The other 5 were included so I'm swapping the rest out so they all look the same age. So there's no downward pressure on the top at all, and it will now be humidified. I put a Sound Waves humidifier in one of the f holes and I will pick up a Dampit at the store later today. It's only been a couple hours and I can see a difference in the profile already. Hopefully in a few days it will lose the corduroys.
Maybe there's nothing wrong with it after all.
I've never paid much heed to humidity but in 2011 I bought a Garrison and the neck was ALL over the place and the top could have held soup. I bought a used humidifier and in a week the change was crazy.
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Thanks for the quick refund ksdaddy. Glad the guitar arrived back safely.
If I had seen the dessicants in there I surely would have removed them! sorry
You could always put a wet sponge in a ziploc bag with holes to get some moisture back.
I did that and wrapped a guitar in a garbage bag for a classical guitar I had that was extremely dried out.
Good luck!
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KSDaddy
Welcome to the forum. I would call MGR right away, now, and tell them you expect a full refund. No restocking fee as they damn sure knew the top was sunken, that's why it was listed so cheap. Just like you were told GOOD FOLLOWS GOOD so that store should be told the same thing. If they haggle tell them that over 2400 guys from here are watching how they handle it. That is 2400 guys that don't know how to control their GAS but are good at hiding guitars from the little lady...
Again welcome and kudos for being a stand up guy. GET ON those people at MGR... We're watching your Music Go Round...
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Hi,
It would be great if this story had a happy ending. I got my fingers crossed for you ksdaddy.
After you re-introduce the humidity, Id be really interested to know if the corduroy pattern goes away.
You may want to snap some before and after shots. Because this guitar has the dubious distinction of being a return, it would be comforting for the next buyer to see what happened.
Joe D
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I'm sorry to be the lone voice espousing another scenario. I suspect the guitar is fine though.
Heritage generally doesn't have an assortment of bridge bases and saddles. So when the guitar's hardware is put on and the guitar is strung, a bridge is pulled out of the box and it's put on the guitar. The bases tend to be low because you can always crank the saddle up but you can't lower it below the base height. Notice how short the base is. They didn't have a taller base or saddle to make it look more elegant. It's "one base fits all".
The braces are cut parallel to the wood fibers, which add to the support with horizontal fibers. If the braces are not cracked or separated from the top, it's hard to picture how the top could have sunk much, if at all. It doesn't make sense.
Someone might picture that the brace sagged but maintained contact with the top. That's unlikely because the glue is aggressive and hard. It would crack before it slips and allows the brace to slide under the top.
The tilting of the saddle is usually affected by adding tension to the strings and would tilt toward the neck with a sunken top, if it tilts at all, when the guitar is tuned.
If I received the guitar, I'd do a mirror or scope exam. If all sides of the braces are in good contact both with and without heavy string tension, that would be fine with me.
Now the guitar has a huge cloud over it. The owner may have ongoing doubts about the structural integrity. In that case, if the music store will take it back, it may be best to go that route.
I hope it works out smoothly and quickly.
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Are you saying this top did not have a sink in the middle? The bridge plate could have been shaved at the previous music store. One person has said the guitar could not be setup w/o buzzing. Originally Posted by Marty Grass
I hope it's fine too. It's either perfectly fine to have a curve like Dennis D's 30s L7 on a Golden Eagle or there's something going on. If it's the latter, hopefully it's just some hydration.
I won't comment further on the guitar since it's not mine. I will be interested in the outcome.
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The soundboard may have a dip in the center and still be normal. It's not rare. No two boards are the same since they are hand carved.
I have a Gibson and a couple of Heritages that look similar. The bracing on all of them is fine and they have been stable.
Here are some comments from the Heritage Owners Club. The guys who have the most experience with archtops in this thread are reassuring.
Golden Eagle sagging top question - Heritage Guitars - Heritage Owners Club
I'm not trying to minimize the situation. As I said, I'd carefully check the bracing. If all is well, I'd relax.
Here's my high rise bridge on my L-5C. I've checked the bracing- no problem. I then strung it up with LaBella FW 15s. I've not had to make any bridge adjustments over time.
I recently put a second thumb wheel on both posts to better stabilize it. And I'll eventually switch to a taller ebony saddle when I get around to it. But that's the way the guitar came, probably from the factory.
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