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I got my Heritage D'Angelico 18" New Yorker back a couple of days ago and last night was able to do a side by side with the D'Angelico Excel. I thought that being an 18" with a deeper body, the HDA would outshine the DA Excel. From a sound perspective, not the case. Not at all. The D'A at 17" and 3" deep is fuller, with deeper bass and has more sustain than the 18" (nearly 3-1/2" deep) HDA. Shocking. The HDA bass notes are not as deep but they are more audible to your ears. So when you are playing Chord melody on the HDA, the bass notes sound more apparent. The Bass notes on DA are slightly less audible but you "feel" them better. I hope that makes sense.
Playability wise, they are both amazing. The HDA has as Vinny puts it, "feeler gauge action" which I like a lot. You can really fly on it. The DA is no slouch either. The geometry of the guitars are very different and it takes some getting use to jumping from one to the other. IF, the DA had a truss rod, I am certain truss rod could be tightened slightly and the neck angle would mimic the HDA. The HDA is a longer scale with a very straight, flat D neck - amazingly similar to the JP-20. The DA has more of C carve that is "neck perfection", to me anyway. The strings are more elevated off the body on the HDA so it takes time to find them when you are playing. However, once your brain is dialed in, there is nothing you cant play on it.
I am sure that if my New Yorker was a real one made by John D'Angelico, I would probably faint everytime I played it.
So many times, an ultra high-end guitar doesn't live up to expectations. I was afraid of that. Well, it didn't happen.
This is a 1935 D'Angelico Excel, that plays like a dream, sounds like music from the heavens and looks as good as the day John himself handed it to its 1st lucky owner.
Thanks, Joe D.
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01-06-2016 10:31 AM
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You know, I just got a Peerless Monarch, which I had strung with TI Swing 12-50's. After listening to your post and remembering from somewhere you preferred the 13's, I put a set of those on my Peerless. It made a very noticeable difference not just in tone, but even playability. Go figure! My PM is, of course, a pretty direct knock-off of one of those Italian D'A models, I think a D'Aquisto maybe.
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Sounds like the Heritage is a heavier build? Thicker top+back+sides? Do you know the weight differences?
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I don't have an accurate scale for weighing things in ounces. The Excel is lighter, around 6lbs. The New Yorker is a larger guitar with more significant hardware on it and its still pretty lightweight at maybe 7.5lbs. If I didn't have the Excel, I would think the NY'er sounded unbelieveable. This NY'er is typical of the few Heritage Guitars that I've owned. They make them lightweight, and very acoustical.
Originally Posted by HeyNow
The Excel is just on a different plateau.. Otherworldly, if you will..
JD
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Check the Heritage out in 70 years. ;-)
I've owned a '38 Gibson L-50 (not a D'A Excel, by any means, but a Golden Era carved body acoustic) since 1973. The guitar sounded _great_ in '73. However, the guitar has continued to get better sounding over time. (One trick: keep playing it. If you don't play a guitar it settles and starts to sound, well, unplayed. It's not as dramatic as when the guitar is new, but an unplayed guitar sounds more "meh" than one that is played regularly.)
I recall when I first played Heritage guitars--Eagles, Eagle Classics, and Johnny Smiths--about 25 years ago at "The Classic Axe." The guitars were good, but I thought they would improve with age. Now, when I play early '90s Eagles, Eagle Classics and the occasional "The Rose" at guitar shows what I notice is how much better these guitars sound _now_. Of course, they are not the same instruments, but my impression is that 25 year-old Heritages sound much more open, and have more low end than they did new. (FWIW, the same phenomenon is noticeable on all well-made archtop guitars.)
So, don't give up on your Heritage D'A! (...or, sell it to me!)
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Greentone,
You make a great point. This guitar hasn't been played for probably 6 years since Jay Wolff parted with it.. I've been told Jay Loved this guitar. As stated numerous times, I love my Excel. But there is just something about this HDA that gets me going. The thought has crossed my mind about moving it to make room for a particular Sunburst LeGrand that I've been Jones'n for.. But I want to keep this one. Its cool to have a Guitar that was featured in a book about D'Angelico's..
Joe D.
Originally Posted by Greentone
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I would advise keeping that HDA. That is a rare bird and a fine guitar....
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The HDA is a fabulous looking and sounding guitar but it is still a DA copy which everyone seems to be doing these days. I had a Vestax DA and it was a fabulous guitar but still a copy like a Ibanez lawsuit. My opinion differs. Yes I bitch about Gibson but I am a Gibson boy through and through. If I had the choice of the HDA or Danny's LeGrand it would be the LeGrand mostly because it is the real deal and not a copy cat guitar. The HDA may sound and play way better than a Gibson LeGrand but I just have a thing about genuine. That is why I sold my Vestax DA. Opinions are like a$$holes. I should probably keep mine shut. Anyway what makes JD happy makes me happy period. I am on his team.
I also ride a Harley Davidson. I would never dream of riding a Japanese look alike but not condemning anyone that does.
I just have a thing about the real deals. We all have strong and different opinions here but that is what makes this site so great.
We all have our guitar hero's too. The main reason I got a DAQ NY was because Grant Green had one.
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I cannot fault Vinny's logic. That said, there are, and will be many more, Gibson LeGrands. There are very few HDAs.
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I guess it is how you look at it. The LeGrande, according to Gibson marketing, is based off of the Gibson Johnny Smith - though in actuality it's much closer to the Guild Johnny Smith aka Artist Award - difference being the Guild is slightly deeper. So, to me, you could say the LeGrande is a copy of the Artist Award, which in turn derived most of its features from Johnny's New Yorker (NYers in turn having started as a very close derivation of an L-5). Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
Soo, I would say a LeGrande is a copy of a derivation, while the HDA is a copy (and a much rarer copy at that).
Just my 2c - how closely one thinks one guitar is to another is obviously very subjective.
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I have a thing about real deals too. But it wouldn't be that fun if I looked on my wall and only saw a Loar L5 sitting there now would it.. Originally Posted by vinnyv1k
When the fat ladies' Larygnitis clears up, The next and final addition will be... A Gibson Johnny Smith.
Then I am going to kill the fat lady.
JD
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Excellent point Marc. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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It's always one more ... I said that about 5 guitars + 6 amps ago. I've retired so many times. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
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c'mon fellas, we all know the chase never ends. I've slowed down considerably in recent years, but if saw something I really,really wanted and could swing it, I'm in.
as happy as Joe D. is now w/his Excel, one day he'll come across another DA he likes better and it'll start all over again.
happened to me, and.... 'it could happen to you'
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Yeah, a Gibson Johnny Smith would be a fine addition to anybody's collection. (They play and sound outstanding, too.)
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Does it mean anything that the HDA was actually built by the very guys who built the early L5s, Johnny Smiths, and Lagrands? I would say Gibson is great because they had amazing people building their guitars. Joe's HDA was built by the same guys who build Danny W. 's 2 Lagrands (unless I have the dates wrong, but you get the idea).
So the HDA is a real Gibson. Not a "real" DA, of course, but still, we forget it's the human factor that makes all these classic guitars great. The hands that made the great arch tops made the best Heritage guitars too.
I still miss my Heritage Golden Eagle. Had my name engraved on the truss rod cover… (sniff)
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Martygrass told me not to bother when I had the Heritage Johnny Smith. He said the Gibson wont be any better. But I do think I have to see for myself some day. Originally Posted by Greentone
Wintermoon, you are right. And that's all the more reason to keep the HDA. Thinking realistically, unless I win the lottery or I sell every toy I own (which will force me to ride my bike to work everyday and look at my phone every time I need to know what time it is..) I will NEVER own a real cutaway New Yorker. I will not spend $40,000 minimum on a guitar. I just cant. So having the real Excel satisfies my real deal need and having the HDA takes care of all the rest. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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Excellent observation Lawson Stone. Originally Posted by lawson-stone
And the primary builder of my HDA was JP Moats too. He and the others actually trained Hutch!
how cool is that!
JD
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"unless I win the lottery or I sell every toy I own (which will force me to ride my bike to work everyday and look at my phone every time I need to know what time it is..) I will NEVER own a real cutaway New Yorker"
I did that once Joe.
I had several DA's through the years, Style A, B, Excel, Specials, etc., and then found a killer non-cut NYer.
I found I could live w/out most of my collection and sold almost every guitar I had to get it.
interestingly today they sell for not a ton more than they sold for 20-25 yrs ago.
buying a DA probably isn't the greatest investment in the world from a monetary standpoint, but many do have the magic. so if you're a player and not looking to cash in big later, they're hard to beat.
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I want to keep the instruments I love to play - not keep guitars because they "are" something:
"I keep that one because it's a post-war L-5."
"I keep that one because it's my only 18" archtop."
"I keep that one because it's my dual humbucker Les Paul type solidbody."
"I keep that one because it was made in my birth year."
And so on. It is truly endless when it goes to that place. Every permutation of guitar features can be justified as being needed. I had 40 guitars at one point a few years back, and I know while that's a butt load, it's still not THAT many to some collectors. But it was totally overwhelming and a guilt-ridden experience of conspicuous consumption for me.
I could be very happy with 10 guitars. I would be satisfied with 5. I absolutely need 2. I've got to at least work on getting closer to those numbers, not keep distancing myself from them!
YMMV I'm sure!
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Amem brother ! Originally Posted by HeyNow
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As Martygrass said,"The Gibson won't be any better". I agree. I've owned and loved both.I had a wonderful 25th Anniversary blonde JS that I got from Danny and a very early blonde HJS. The Heritage was IMHO the better guitar. But to everyone else's eyes it was a lesser guitar not being a "Gibson". I think the only thing a Gibson JS has on a Heritage is the shape of the F holes. Other than that the Heritage wins. Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco
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"I think the only thing a Gibson JS has on a Heritage is the shape of the F holes."
well, except maybe the resale value and that headstock
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I have owned a Heritage Johnny Smith and currently own a Gibson LeGrand. The Heritage was an excellent sounding instrument with decent balance and adequate... , but not spectacular bass response. The tone was very jazzy , but I always found myself wishing it had more bass - sustain and resonance. Also, the neck extension had a slight slope which necessitated fret leveling past the 12 th fret....which is something Ive experienced on 3 of the 5 Heritage Archtops Ive owned( 2 sweet 16's , 2 Golden eagles and JS).
Now for the LeGrand, I have a 1998 Hutchins period sunburst that has a laser straight neck, perfect intonation.. a deep resonating bass that vibrates your torso with perfectly balanced volume on each string and a thick rich warm tone reminicent of a few D'Angelico' s Ive played. I find myself gravitating to this guitar ....its sweet - warm and super responsive....and easy to play.
As for scale length, the Gibson is 25-3/8, Heritage 25,... playability and comfort go to the Gibson.
From my prespective the Gibson is superior in appointments, sound , neck shape and resale value. That does mean I would not buy another Heritage JS , because I would in a second.
In fact, , I believe Heritage guitars are the best American built (less boutique) Archtop value in our current market. Where else can you get that quality of instrument at current market price points. Also, I find them to be relatively quick resales because of the afordability - value proposition and overall preception of really feeling like you scored a great guitar for a bargain.
But for me , thats where it ends.....its truly not in the league of a LeGrand, which I actually consider to be superior to many of the original Gibson Johnny smiths that Ive played.
Just my opinion..... and no disrespect to HJS owners.
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Every guitar is different and should be considered on its own merits, not the name on the headstock. That said, the name on the headstock has a major effect on value.....today. Tomorrows buyers (gen Y) may not be willing to pay extra for a guitar that says Gibson on the headstock.
Johnny Smith had 4 signature model guitars. In concert, he still used his DA.
Barney Kesel had 2 signature model guitars. In concert, he still used his ES 350
Kenny Burell had a signature Heritage guitar. In concert he still uses a Super 400
I have played Gibson Johnny Smiths that underwhelmed me and a few that blew me away. I would say the same about the Legrand.
But in the end, we all have a bucket list and only live once. If Joe needs a Gibson Johnny Smith to complete his bucket list, I say go for it! My advice would be to hold out for one from the early 60's. They are the best I have played. And even if the Heritage Johnny Smith was made by the same guys, there were better woods available in the old days.
And if Joe never gets another guitar, I would say that he has done damn well and can be proud of both his guitar collection and his skill as a jazz guitarist.
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