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As I wrote in this thread back in June: "Before you go thinking I'm on a guitar buying binge, I'm sort of hoping that *this* is *the* guitar." Famous last words...
As a recap, after the sale of our old house, I convinced my wife to allow me to use some of the proceeds to "invest" in serious vintage guitar. Now, from the beginning, I was thinking about something like a 16" Gibson L-5. However, I realized that I didn't necessarily really know enough about what I wanted to know for sure that was the right choice. So, I looked at every vintage archtop I could play in person, and cyberstalked the internet for every acoustic archtop listed.
Along the way I took a couple of risks, all of which were very helpful in advancing my understanding, and all but one were successful. First, I spotted a '35 L-12 on ebay that had some indicia of being a good example (lots of legit playwear, light weight). I'd never played an x-braced advanced Gibson (at least with the thought of comparing it to a parallel braced guitar), and for what I got it for, I figured I could learn something from it, and turn it around for at least what I paid. My suspicions were proven right, and the guitar sounded great. Once properly set up, it proved to be a perfect representation of what advanced x-braced Gibsons do: sound full, round and sustain-y, and they speak quickly. They are excellent for solo chord melody and playing in duos. However, I also learned what they don't excel at: projection in a large group. Although the lack of midrange, and the abundant bass and treble sound good in isolation, they don't really work out well in a vintage dance-band like mine.
Next up, I found a 1932 Epiphone Deluxe that looked familiar on Larkstreet online. I checked with a friend, and it was a guitar that my friend had owned for the last couple years. After talking over with him what I was missing with the L-12, he said the Deluxe was the answer and even offered to buy it back from me if I didn't like it. The 16.5" parallel-braced 25.5" scale Deluxe arrived and I immediately didn't really like it. Thankfully, I finally figured out that it was just my expectations having been set to the L-12, and the Deluxe was really the opposite. Deluxe sounds sweet, but it doesn't speak nearly easily as the L-12, and its a bit more angular and nasal that one might like in isolation. Once I had an opportunity to play it with the full band, I could really understand what a cannon it was, in exactly the perfect frequencies needed in such a large ensemble. I had figured out the that my Epiphone was definitely a special guitar, and was exceptionally suited to my needs playing in a swing band.
Still, I found myself playing the L-12 at home, and not really picking up the Epi except for gigs. Plus, I had one trio gig where I wished I had the fullness of the L-12, because the pure cut of the Epi was a bit austere for the small space. An acquaintance messaged me about a '37 walnut-back Epi Broadway. It was refinished and refurbished, but done really well, and it was priced accordingly. We agreed he'd pay for shipping to me, and I'd pay shipping back if I didn't want to keep it. The guitar arrived, but after taking it to my tech, he advised me to pass, and I sent it back, no hard feelings. Still, I was happy to basically be "done".
Then I dropped by Norman's Rare Guitars on a lunch break, and found out about their recent purchase of $1.5 million worth of guitars from the Hank Risan collection. I had an epic couple of hours playing through a selection of guitars may not ever have been assembled in one store ever: 4 D'Angelicos, a Stromberg Master 400, a '34 Epi Deluxe, a '37 Deluxe, and several 16" and 17" pre-1950 L-5s. They'd already sold several things, including a Loar-signed L-5 and a D'A or two. While I really was struck by the 16" D'A, and a 16" L-5 (#90303 if you're interested), I was also digging the super early 17" L-5 they had with wide-block inlays. Plus, that one was a bit more doable, financially. Getting to hear so many guitars back-to-back really added to my ability to hear what I like and didn't like. There was a point where I could kind of hear what the ebony fingerboard added to the tonal picture, and I knew that was something I liked.
Anyway, I went back with both my Deluxe and the L-12 to compare it the wide-inlay 17" L-5. I was surprised when the L-12 pretty much kept pace with it. The L-5 was "better" but not by a particularly great margin. Plus since they already had a '37 L-12 in the shop, I knew there was no point in trading. But, I spent a lot of time playing with 16" L-5 90303. Norm made me an offer below sticker price, and I made me think long and hard.
Once I thought about how I could compare so many guitars and really hear the differences, I felt confident I could be sure about spending so much on a guitar. When I went back with the intention to buy 90303, I knew I was gonna play it a bunch in store to be doubly sure. Once I got there, I realized there were still 15-20 more guitars in cases that I hadn't even looked through. They had 5 16" L-5s in the store at that moment. One dot, three block, and one special order with banjo inlays. It was a once in a lifetime opportunity to compare that many of the exact same model. I'd been hipped to the tonal impact of "kerfed" braces by both Joe V at archtop.com and by Tony Marcus. Gibson started cutting corners and kerfed the braces to make them easier to fit to the top, rather than carving them to fit perfectly. This happened right when they made the change to block inlays. Generally, I was told, solid braced L-5s sound better than the kerfed ones. Luckily, Gibson was so inconsistent with features that they did make some block inlay guitars with solid braces anyway. In playing through the block inlay guitars (they were $4k cheaper than the dot, at least on the sticker), I quickly figured out one of them 88784 seemed to stand out. They all sounded lovely, but the magical combo of warmth and punch that I'd hoped for was most present in 88784. I asked the techs in the in-house repair shop to check, and sure enough, 88784 had solid braces, and the other two were kerfed. Comparing 88784 to the dot-neck guitar, the dot-neck one was a superbly clean guitar with little playwear and an intact pickguard. It sounded wonderful, but it wasn't really significantly better sounding that 88784, plus it was a difference of at least $3k in price. After comparing it to that many guitars, I finally bit the bullet and bought it. It was the most expensive thing I've ever bought that didn't involve a car loan or a mortgage. When I home I was kind of in shock.
I had occasion to get the guitar set up and use it on a gig the next day:
I ended up playing the L-5 the whole gig with nothing but joy - it had plenty of punch plus sweetness and warmth. That weekend I flew both the Epi and the L-5 to Washington DC, and used both guitars with a small band, a big band, and some late night acoustic jam sessions. The L-5 was clearly magical, but the Epiphone was also superb. I was surrounded by several guitar player friends all of whom enjoyed both guitars, and we also compared it to my friend's excellent '51 L-7. All had distinctive tonal characters, and each was worthwhile and engaging. Still, all things being equal I loved the warmth and dry woodiness of the L-5 most of all. It spoke instantly, had outstanding punch concentrated on the D and G strings (right where it's needed for rhythm guitar). Lastly, I'd never found a neck profile that I thought was my favorite - I was always felt pretty comfortable going back and forth from guitar to guitar without really worrying about the neck. Well, the rounded "D" of the L-5 and it's 1.775" width is ideal for my balance of rhythm, single note and chord melody. It's definitely my favorite neck I've ever played. The slightly thinner Epi neck was easy for rhythm and single notes, but was slightly more cramped for chord melody.
But then something horrible happened.....
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10-23-2015 03:38 PM
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Anyway, not 8 days in to having the guitar something horrific happened to it. Something banged into it, and it re-opened the long-ago sealed grainline crack on the treble side upper bout. Outside of death, I don't think I've ever felt so horrified. The crack was reopened, and there was a quite bit of splintering along the crack. It looked horrible and I was heartbroken.
I took the guitar to Westwood Music, and thankfully Chelsea Clark said she could take care of it. Sealing the crack structurally would be no problem, but it the difficulty would be cosmetic, given the splintering. Chelsea trained with Dan Erlewine, so she knows her stuff. She used hide glue because she felt it would give the best sound. Anyway, she said it would be at least 6 weeks turn around time. Let me tell you, it was a LONG six weeks.
Anyway, when I picked the guitar up I was not feeling great, and my head was very skeptical. Had I ruined the tone of the guitar? I had devalued it so much that it wasn't worth anything anymore? My immediate appraisal was that the guitar sounded "ok, I guess", and the repair was done as neatly as possible, but it didn't look perfect. I wasn't thrilled.
Well, knowing myself and the ability of my expectations to cloud my senses, I gave it several days. Once I played the guitar for a couple of days, I realized that the repair wasn't really something you noticed unless you looked for it - and importantly, that the previous crack that had been there didn't exactly look good either. Even more importantly, I found the voice of the guitar was completely in tact. It hadn't lost a step - I had just been so skeptical that I hadn't really given it a chance. Chelsea nailed it, and I kind of feel like a dick that I wasn't more appreciative of how much effort she must have put in to get all the splinters back into place.
So, I've played the thing for about two weeks now, and I keep finding amazing joy in it. The voice I'd been looking for is right there, and the magical balance of projection, punch, and warmth. I took it to Denver last weekend, and it sounded great on the gig, but it also allowed me to hear it against the guitars at one of my favorite guitar stores, Olde Town Pickin' Parlor. They had a '46 Deluxe, a '40 L-7, a '46 Triumph, a '36 L-10, along with two guitars not-for-sale: a '39-42 L-5 and a '28 L-5 (with a later narrow block finger board). While many of the guitars had a wonderful sound (and they were all set up perfectly, because the shop at the pickin' parlor is fantastic), it totally kept pace with all of them. That was the final litmus test - all of the cynical doubt was lifted once I heard it sound amazing next to all those other guitars.
I'm experimenting with going back up to 13's (+14 and 18 on top), and I'm kind of digging it. I just threw on some monels last night and they're really singing. I probably need to take it in for adjustment if I keep them on. But, it's still pretty friggin' awesome. Here's an "after" photo:
So here's a video I recorded earlier in the week (with 13's in Martin SP 80/20). I hope you like it.
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Jonathan,
Excellent assessment of the x-braced, 16" L-5. You are right on--very wide, hi-fi sound. (Great sound, by the way, on your clip.) Not the "mid" monster that so many parallel braced archtops tend to be. It makes a perfect lap piano for playing solo guitar. If you want to accompany Bing, you cannot find a better instrument. However, if you are chugging along in a big band the Epiphone is your ticket--or a 17" advanced body L-5 with thicker top and parallel braces. BOOM!
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Love it
... I thought I have to many guitars..., but you seem to have all the ones I still want....
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Dont you just love Chelsea?
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Yeah, both her and Dave are pretty fantastic. Her blog is great from what I remember too.
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G.T.,
16" L-5's are all parallel braced
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Lovely sound and playing. To me, that s the ultimate solo arch top sound. Great guitar played greatly!
bob
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CF, you swing. You guys make me sooo sad that I had to sell my '24 for financial reasons. Needed a car, getting married, etc. Then again, that neck was a bear...
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Congratulations! As ever, lovely tone & playing, thanks.
Also thanks for all the info.
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I'm glad that worked out well. I can't imagine the sickening feeling in your stomach when that happened.
It looks and plays as well as new. The one good thing is that it didn't make new cracks but re-opened an old one. It is probably the better for it now since the old repair didn't hold up well.
Old million dollars violins get repaired all the time so take heart in that.
Sounds great! Play your 1932 L5 in good health.
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Love the journey of discovery that accompanied that clip. Looks and sounds great to me.
Thanks for sharing the journey.
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I own 86842 and it also has the rounded D neck, one of the most comfortable ever with no "V" profile at all, and worth the slight extra premium price for the year ('28). Hank Risan also owned my guitar for a period of time. Here's his website.
I can't imagine the fun and interesting experience of comparing almost half a dozen 16" L-5s. And I can see how it would really solidify your sense of buying the absolute best one for you.
The '28 L-5 put my acoustic archtop GAS to rest permanently. It has a couple of repaired cracks too - not caused or exacerbated by me though (that must have just outright SUCKED; I would have died inside). So glad yours got sorted and now you have no excuse but to play the snot out of it.
CongratsLast edited by rpguitar; 10-24-2015 at 05:55 AM.
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I was hoping you could post a review of the guitars you encountered at Olde Town Pickin' Parlor. My acoustic archtop collection primarily consists of Epiphone Triumphs, so I'd like to read your opinions on how they stack up to the heavy hitters.
Originally Posted by campusfive
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Hmmm...well I should've taken notes. I will say the $2500 1940 L-7 sounded excellent, and I would recommend that as a really good deal. It was in great shape, save for the noticeable playwear on the neck (which is a good thing in my book), played great and sounded good. $2500 for an L-7 isn't exactly a steal, but I think that one is totally worth it. The L-10 wasn't as light as my L-12, but still had that advanced x-braced mojo. I'd need to sit with it longer to really get a better sense - only downside is that since L-10's are the rarest of the 17" Gibsons, you're probably paying a bit more for the novelty/rarity. Plus, it's a goddam shame that the back on the L-10 isn't sunburst because the rollers of flame maple are particularly awesome on it. All things being equal, the Deluxe had probably the best tone of the stuff for sale. The owner has a soft spot for blonde 40's Deluxes, and that one sounds and plays wonderfully. Originally Posted by Klatu
One of the things about that store is that the stuff is always set up well, so their instruments always sound the best.
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Speaking of guitar stores, it has been pretty amazing this year to play through so many amazing guitars, and the Norm's story was just the icing. I was looking back through facebook for a photo, and it reminded me of how many places I've been this year where I got to try great guitars.
In March, I did a Charlie Christian-style guitar clinic, and a friend brought his Slaman DS-250. In April we went to Washington DC, where I used my friend's '51 L-7 and the '39 ES-150 that I found for him (it was so bizarre to fly out with his guitar and leave with none). In June in Rochester, I dropped by House of Guitars and tried out a '34 refinished L-5. Then back at home, Truetone Music got a Stromberg Master 400, so I spent some time with that. Then we went to New York and Boston. TR Crandall had 3 16" L-10's, two great 17" L-5's and several other great guitars. Retrofret had a couple great archtops, but of course, that D'Angelico was the coolest thing. In Boston we hit Bay State Vintage Guitars, and checked out a '39 L-5 and a Stromberg or two. In July, I was offered a good deal on a '36 L-5, that I eventually passed on so I could get the '32. Then the whole Norm's thing happened, and finally to cruise through the inventory at Olde Town Pickin' Parlor... geez.
The whole thing has been amazingly illustrative. But perhaps the single greatest thing I learned is that acoustics (the phenomenon, not the guitars) can vary so widely, room-to-room, even based on position within a room, that you really need to spend significant time with a guitar to get a true sense of it. I can't tell you how many times I was not super impressed with a guitar, but after changing my position relative to the guitar or changing my position in the room, found something great. A mediocre guitar won't sound amazing with perfect acoustics, but I great guitar can sound mediocre with bad acoustics. Add to that the sense-shifting power of expectation, and it can be a mine-field out there trying to figure out what's what.
Funny thing about Norms - it's a big room, entirely carpeted with almost no natural reverb. It doesn't exactly serve to make the guitars sound great. But once I was able to bring my own guitars in to compare, it allowed me to set a benchmark. I had a similar benchmark setting experience where I played my L-5 for second, but sort of tilted at the ground, and it sounded small. And then I played through several of their guitars in a more normal posture, and they all sounded great ("oh, fuck" I thought - "that crack really killed the guitar"), and then I picked up the L-5 again and played it in the same posture as the rest, and was very much reassured everything was as it should be, and the L-5 was amazing.
Even great wine can taste like vinegar if somebody puts it in your mind that you're drinking crap.
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is that still available perhaps....??? Originally Posted by campusfive
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They guy decided to keep it after all....
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Oh hey... look what just popped up:
88784 - Gibson L-5
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Great sounding guitar, Jonathan. Always enjoy hearing you play.
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Roger, Originally Posted by rpguitar
16 inch non cuts from this period are truly amazing instruments and the standards by which all else are judged. I was fortunate to acquire a 1935 D'Angelico snakehead years ago and the tone and natural reverb is magical. It's something I'll likely keep forever.
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Took the L-5 for a spin on "Paper Moon". It's currently got Martin Monel's on it (13's+14/18), so it's pretty barky. I'm sure I'll swap them for 80/20 in a bit to compare. I've been digging the DR 80/20 strings lately, but I don't have a set in 13, so I'll probably just go back to my standby Martin SP 80/20's until I order some DR's/
Enjoy
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Sweet and swingin'! Very nice.
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Love the performance!
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Here's a my video review of the guitar. I blathered on for 40 minutes, and only started playing the guitar at ~20 minutes in. Still, if you've read the thread this far, you might enjoy it. Cheers.
Oh, and I put a pickguard on it. I tried a $50 ebay one, and I was not thrilled. Plus, the bracket dimensions were a bit off. Ended up going with the archtop.com one, which was, of course much better, and much more expensive. But the bracket was perfect, and even aged appropriately to match the rest of the hardware.
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