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can't believe how long its taken me to appreciate this properly - i mean it is a huge thing and i've only just got my head round it properly. i'm posting because i want other people to learn from my mistakes.
i have a henriksen 110
if i turn the volume on the amp up to around 4 i have to turn the volume on the guitar down to around 5 or 6
if i have the volume on the amp around 2 i can have the volume on the guitar around 9 or 10
the huge issue is this
if i use the first setting even if i boost the tone control on the guitar to 10 the guitar still sounds very mellow and dark
if i use the second setting if i boost the tone control to 10 the guitar sound a bit too bright and cutting (just a bit mind)
if i set the volume on the amp at about 3.5 and on the guitar to about 8 i hit the sweet spot - so i can have my tone control wide open on the guitar and get a perfectly balanced tone with lots of definition AND all the warmth i want
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if the amp had a master and a gain then this picture would be made considerably more complicated.
i bet i've toiled through hundreds of gigs with a guitar sound that's annoying me that i could have sorted out quickly if i'd known about this. jokes aside (about how dumb i am) - i don't know whether to be furious with myself for not understanding this sooner or relieved that i've finally got it.
shiiiiiiiit (this is the corrupt politician guy from 'the wire' saying sh*t)
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10-15-2015 04:24 AM
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yes, I see what you mean. It took me a while to understand how much the volume knob on my guitar changed the tone.
All amps have their sweet spots, on tube amps its at about 5 or 6 IMO.
I use a tube amp so it would respond differently but I find that my guitar sounds better with the amp quite loud at about 5 and volume knob on the guitar about 3/4 of the way. With the guitar volume on full it sounds shrill and brittle.
I generally turn the bass on the amp all the way down then use the tone knob on the guitar if I need to but usually it stays on full.
Making those low notes have clarity with a bit of thunk without the high strings sounding too bright is the challenge. Clarity and even-ness across the entire fretboard is about important as your tone IMO.
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yes, it's fairly well-known that turning the guitar volume down cuts the high end progressively, independent of amp settings.Best range for most purposes on a gig is 8- 10 ( for single line playing). But on a guitar that's naturally too bright, slightly lower settings can work well, if you really don't want to use the tone control.
I'd never run a guitar volume at less than 7, personally. Cutting high end is what the 'tone' control is for!!
The other issue is that if you control your overall volume from your guitar, the amp gets relatively noisier because of reduced signal/ noise ratio.
I had a Norlin 175 for a few years, with metal screening cans around the controls. Even turning that particular guitar down to '8' darkened the tone almost to mud
Don't feel too bad- you're not the only player not to realise this; most of us find out the hard way
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I have a Epi Emp Reg with a neck mounted mini humbucker that is annoyingly thin sounding and the tone is either on or off.
But upping the amp volume and dropping the guitar volume by a third to a half means the tone control has more texture (an improvement, not much tho').
Baxandale tone stacks were a revelation for me when I got an Ampeg amp. It's a great way to boost and cut frequencies without dancing around with guitar tone controls.
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It's most noticeable on my Le Grand with floating pickup.
I find it handy to use as a tone control. Especially with the floater being somewhat toppy when volume is all the way up.
There's youtube clip of Johnny Smith playing shiny stocking - that's the tone I'm chasing with a floater... yet I get nearer to that tone on my 175 than the Le Grand!
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A very easy solution is a treble bleed mod - this way you'll keep the highs when you turn down the guitar's volume.
Adding a master volume to the Henriksen is possible according to my tech.
Also getting a good eq with booster. This way you could turn the amp lout and cut volume with the pedal which, being buffered and active, would not cut highs. And you also had some additional tone sculpture tools. My Henriksen loved EQs.
An EV Force 10 instead of the Emi BEta 10 also helps on the dark / bright ballance of the amp.
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The treble bleed mod ( $2.99 ) is the best move IMO. I wouldn't sweat it on a jazz box because I always play clean, but when I want to use my guitar volume to control gain or volume in any other band situation I can't fuss with the knobs. I mean I can boost the treble on my amp, cut it back on my guitar and add it as I lower the volume, but why bother when a $3 cap will do it for me. The most important thing is what the OP stated. He learned what these knobs do and can utilize that knowledge if and when the need arises.
Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Every guitar teacher should explain this non treble bleed principle I believe. I was playing years before I realized this. In fact Mel Bay One should have this added:
Turn the tube amp up to get a perfect OD lead tone without the band
Then boost the mids and treble 20%
Reduce the guitar tone to 7-8
Reduce the guitar volume to 3-4 and adjust pick attack to achieve clean tone
Add volume to add gain (crunch )
Crank both knobs to 10 for solo
You solo will cut through the mix without adding much volume and in no time you will have mastered the guitar knobs.Last edited by Sandy Renda Wannabe; 10-15-2015 at 08:37 AM.
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SRW - that sounds like a very clever method
if you play - as i think i have - with the vol. on the amp as low as you can and the vol on the guitar v. high - the guitar feels wrong as well as sounding wrong. its very unforgiving.
if you get the two volumes right relative to one another there's a softer attack as well as a better tone. and the softer attack does not compromise definition either. amazing.
if i ever go back to an amp with a master/gain set up i'll be totally screwed again for five years at least....
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Agreed, treble bleed mod is no doubt the bost option. But the Henriksen does like EQ pedals Originally Posted by Sandy Renda Wannabe
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what's the best eq pedal for the henriksen?
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The barb eq is great if you like fender sounds. For more jazzy sounds a baxandall eq is great - the Fromel Shape EQ is perfect but it does not have a boost (I modded mine to have one). The Barber Linden EQ maybe? The RC Booster is nice too but expensive for what it is. I am receiving a Polytone clone soon, the files are here in a thread I created.
Parametric eq works great too but it may be redundant with the Henriksen's graphic eq.
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I suspect the tone pot is a linear rather an audio taper style. This will cause it to act like an on/off switch. Originally Posted by jazzbow
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the problem with trying to fix this might be that it isn't actually a problem at all
there's a thickness and richness to the sound i'm getting when the amp is up a bit too loud and i have to turn the guitar down a bit from 10 to 7 or 8 to compensate.
isn't the 'treble bleed' part of that thicker sound? (and might not the amp operating at a higher volume be part of it too - even though its solid state?). if i 'cured' the treble-loss would i lose this thicker tone?
or could i get it just by turning the tone down a tad as the volume goes up on the guitar?
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what has always encouraged me to keep the amp down as low as possible is just amp-noise. as soon as i get any i've tended to turn the amp down a bit.
but that gives me the shriller brittle tone from the guitar that is so hard to work with. etc.
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Well, the theory simply says that turning down the vol pot will simply reduce high frequencies disproportionately, rather than adding anything. Originally Posted by Groyniad
But never mind; if it works for you and you prefer the sound, fine. I seem to remember that at least one of the great players used to do the same thing, and he sounded pretty reasonable. From what you've said, you might not like the treble bleed modification anyway, although again in theory that is simply replacing lost high frequencies.
But I think much lower than 7 or 8 and you will start to notice increased noise from the amp.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
It is the ultimate tool to have mastered. I learned how to master the guitar knobs by playing over Led Zep 2. That LP has almost every aspect of tones you can get on a guitar with one setting. Using that method you can play the whole LP without touching your amp. From heavy lead work to mid crunch blues and clean tones. Jimmy utilizes the middle position on his LP with different volumes, but that is more advanced. The idea is to learn how to achieve the spectrum of tones, gain levels and volumes with just the 4 knobs on your guitar and your pick attack. Once that is mastered with a chorus and delay in your FX loop you are pretty much set for most guitar work excluding metal and some 80's rock and that could be achieved with a good pedal to push the front of your amp. I know this is a Jazz forum, but I wish I read about this this 25 years ago.
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When I found that I stopped using the tone knob. I always play with a cranked amp so I have a warm tone even with the guitar volume in 2-3.
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As opposed to just an EQ, I've been running a tech 21 blonde in front of my Henriksen lately, and been very happy. Now I can use my Tele with this amp, which I never did before. Originally Posted by Groyniad
My other guitars still sound great without the blonde, but it's nice to have two good tones to play with, a more modern solid state sound and a pretty believable tube sound.
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I'm not suggesting gear is the answer to all problems, but in this case the following product may help: Creation Audio Labs Redeemer Buffer | for Archtop Guitars and Double Bass | SOUNDISLANDMUSIC.COM
I haven't spent a lot of time with it, but the one time I played through it at Soundisland Music I found it did its job.
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+1 on the "treble bleed mod" solution. I have one on my Grestch and one my Cabronita thinline, and they work well. On my regular tele I have "50's wiring", which is a different way of doing it, you don't actually add any components, and it works much the same. It has to do with how the pickups are loaded down... some people prefer 50s wiring to a treble bleed, because they think it sounds more natural. Me, I like both methods, on their respective guitars.
Here's a treble bleed from TV Jones:
https://store.tvjones.com/treble-bleed-p100.aspx
here's how it's implemented:
Here's 50's wiring: it simply involves moving one wire from one pot lug to another, that's it.
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I've always preferred the tone of my guitars with the controls wide open. Lately I've also come to prefer amps with fewer tone controls -- or none.
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I'm guessing "dime everything" is a bad idea on a Henriksen? I'm too chicken to try.
I like to set amp tone & volume with guitar volume at 7-8 so I can jump up a bit when it gets louder -- as it inevitably does.
I like neck pickup alone in many instances, but I have been finding lots of great tones with two pickups engaged these days . . . neck + bridge, or in the case of the strat, neck + middle
Neck pickup on full with bridge as a volume control is my new thing.
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I have two guitars with Vintage Vibe floating CC style pickups. The sweet spot is having the volume between 5 - 8, tonally that's where it sounds best, but it's also where the hum is at its quietest. On 10 the tone is bright and clear, but the hum is pretty noticeable.
My Telecaster has a treble bleed, it works very well in keeping the high end present on lower volume settings, it can however sound very thin if the volume on the guitar is below 3 or 4. Again 5-8ish seems to be where it sounds its sweetest.
Recently I purchased a Gitane DG-300, I have a Krivo Nuevo single coil pickup ordered for it. That has no volume control or anything so it will be interesting to see how it sounds given there's no ability to darken the sound of the pickup by backing off the volume control.
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"Dark toned gypsy guitar" is an oxymoron Originally Posted by entresz
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How very true!!! Originally Posted by D.G.
"Dark toned gypsy guitar" is an oxymoron
Bright is fine, as long as it doesn't make my ears bleed too much I'll be happy
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