I'm considering a Greco ES-175 from 1969

[orri]

I found a Greco ES-175 from 1969 in a local (Stockholm) guitar store in excellent condition and it looks like it has never been touched or played (but some corrosion on the saddle and the pickguard mounting screws).

I think it is a bit cool to own a lawsuit model which is in a way a piece of an interesting history.

I am though bit unsure since my knowledge on guitar value, and judgement of condition is a bit so so (I know the basics though).

The price tag is a bit high. It is around 2000 USD (16500 SEK).
I've found them on ebay from Japan around $1000 but I'd have to pay for both shipping and 25% sales tax on top of that, and they are not in as good condition (though acceptable) and might need to be taken to a luthier. Taking that into account I guess it is on the upper side of a fair price. (?)


So I have a few questions:

- Has anyone tried or owned one of these?
- Do you know in general if Greco quality varied much between years?
- Do you think I could get the famous ES-175 "quintessential jazz-tone" from it? (asside from the human factor i.e. my playing skills)
I did try it with an amp, but there was some guy (with no sense for time and rythm) playing some pentatonic licks on a telecaster next to me, so I could hear all the tonal details that well, but roughly speaking it sounded awesome as far as I could hear in those conditions and crystal clear, no hum and pots dead silent when turned)
- Something I should be aware of or consider or check?
- Some other relevant/useful/interesting information you'd like to add?



Less relevant background info and thoughts: (feel free to skip it)

I was also considering getting a new Gibson ($5000 USD). It is of course cool to own "the real thing" and get a crown jewel of my guitar collection.
But then I'm wondering how genuine the ES-175 59 reissues made today (2015) are? The other option is to get a genuine vintage one but I just don't think I have the knowledge and judgement to know what is a good deal and what is not.
Isn't also the "spirit" of the ES-175 to be a more affordable(-ish)?

Other options I've considered is the Epiphone premium model, or perhaps get one custom made for me from Yunzhi, but I'm wondering if it would play and sound similar enough?

I guess what I am after is
- an awesome guitar to love and enjoy playing (but I already have more than one of those)
- a representative quintessential ES-175 to my collection
- a bit of a cool factor. A Gibson has the genuine factor. Greco from 1969 has a vintage and lawsuit history factor. Yunzhi would have a "custom made for me" factor. Epiphone has nothing cool about it that I can think of but fulfills the other criteria welll.

It is not a matter of needing a guitar and having a certain budget.
I don't need a new guitar at all.
But I do want one
I have enough money to buy a new Gibson if I come to the conclusion that it is what I really really want. But I don't need to spend that money on a guitar. Money can be used for other things too.

[Archie]

Well ok thats interesting, I'm not sure what your thoughts are.

I will sell you a genuine Gibson ES-175 for £1700 SEK-180,000? Its a 2007 that has no issues at all and sounds and plays extremely well. You'll have shipping to Sweden but you wont have any import duties, as your in Europe! So will probably end up costing you SEK195,000 all in?





In the end I'm not trying to sell you my guitar (although it s for sale), i'm trying to make a point! So do you think the Greco is worth 300 SEK's less?

I also doubt very highly that the guitar in the shop (was it in Stockholm, Vintage Guitars or Rock something, in Sodermalm?), is a 1969 Greco, as they did not serial date their guitars until the mid 70's (Although they are a Domestic market Japanese brand, so they may have started serial dating earlier than say ibanez however, they were made in the same factory), so I would say it is probably an early 70's probably 73, which was about the time the Es-175 copy became more prevalent. I wouldn't have even thought a 69' model existed, unless it is different in some way, in which case I would like to see it.

Do you have a link, I can help you further if I can see it. An early mint Greco Es-175 will be a fantastic guitar though, no doubt but it will probably have the really thin nut of 41mm as they copied the 60's Gibson Es-175, if I recall correctly :-)

I'm pretty sure if you waited, I could find you a good condition Ibanez 2355 (Es-175 copy same as Greco, different badge) for about 100,00SEK and that would be landed.

[kawa]

You can check to some extent by

https://www.google.co.jp/webhp?sourc...5+copy&tbm=vid

[Max405]

What Archie layed out is pretty much a no brainer to me.
If you are chasing after a 175, there will be no substitute for the real deal. At the difference in cost you guys are talking about, the Greco should not even be an option. Archie's 175 is beautiful (I owned it's brother for a while). It feels solid, fast, responsive and it is the benchmark, the legend, one of the greatest jazz guitars ever introduced. The Greco is a nice copy.

[Archie]

What Archie layed out is pretty much a no brainer to me.
If you are chasing after a 175, there will be no substitute for the real deal. At the difference in cost you guys are talking about, the Greco should not even be an option. Archie's 175 is beautiful (I owned it's brother for a while). It feels solid, fast, responsive and it is the benchmark, the legend, one of the greatest jazz guitars ever introduced. The Greco is a nice copy.

Thats very nice of you Joe but I tell you what, those Greco's are every bit the early 60's 175 and if it is an early one, it will have a nice thin laminate spruce top but a very thin nut. I mean the price isn't awful, its just I would expect to be able to get it for about 600SEK less. Then I haven't taken into account the price of things in Sweden and the earnings, which are higher, so the difference could be negligible. Plus it is in a shop, which are hellishly expensive.

[vintagelove]

Greco's are very nice, but buy the 175 the gentleman above is selling. You would be silly not to.

[Stringswinger]

As the song said, "there's nothing like the real thing..."

[Cunamara]

I haven't followed prices of these very closely, but I would not pay even $1000 for an Ibanez/Greco/etc. ES-175 copy. I see them and other "lawsuit" era (which is mostly overhyped urban myth) guitars on eBay for nearly as much as the real thing and I laugh every time. These were cheap copies at the time and they are still cheap copies. If you can afford a real Gibson, buy a real Gibson. If nothing else your resale value will be much better.

The price of US$2000 is damn near the price for a real, more or less vintage Gibson ES-175. There's one locally to me, a 1972 I think, for US$2400. I realize that there is a premium added for these guitars once they get to Europe (shipping, handling, currency exchange, taxes, etc., all add up) so the US$ prices are not directly comparable. But, geez, $2000 for what was a cheap copy of a Gibson seems outrageous to me.

[Para]

Back in 1949 the ES175 was cheap $175

[vinlander]

In my humble experience, a crave is never "fully" satisfied with anything else but the real deal...

[BigMikeinNJ]

Verdict is in, buy the Gibson.

Yet I differ very strongly against the view that the Greco and Ibanez copies are inferior, cheap in price compared to a Gibson yes, but not cheap copies. Thank You...

[orri]

Thanks everyone for your input.

The general consensus seems to be that it is a bit overpriced and that I should ArchtopHeaven's gibson.

As has been mentioned, guitar prices are a bit higher in Sweden where I live. If a guitar on ebay costs $1000 + shipping in a non-EU country, I need to pay 25% sales tax, so it is $1250 + shipping. (the greco is actually at $1900 (the $2000 was a rough fiurue) so paying ~$650 for superior condition, being able to see it and try it and avoiding shipping costs, doesn't sound that unfair )

New guitars in local shops also have a 25% sales tax and that affects second-hand prices too.
If I buy something from another EU country it usually includes that counties sales tax which tends to be lower (15%-20% is common).

I will definitely give ArchtopHeaven's Gibson a good consideration.
But his currency translations and calcluations seem to have gotten a bit off track somewhere
1700 GPB = ~2650 USD = ~23 000 SEK, so less than 40% (or ~6500 SEK) more than the Greco without the shipping, but it skill seams like a better deal deal.

(I didn't bold text to offend or belittle or anything like that. This post of mine just has a bit massive amount of text and this is perhaps the most relevant input for the threads current discusion, in case someone just wants to skim through my post.)

I also doubt very highly that the guitar in the shop (was it in Stockholm, Vintage Guitars or Rock something, in Sodermalm?), is a 1969 Greco, as they did not serial date their guitars until the mid 70's ...

Yes I had read about the serial dating and wondered where that 69 number came from. It might be information that came with the guitar to the shop or something, but it could be false.
The shop is called Jam, and is in Östermalm.

Do you have a link, I can help you further if I can see it. An early mint Greco Es-175 will be a fantastic guitar though, no doubt but it will probably have the really thin nut of 41mm as they copied the 60's Gibson Es-175, if I recall correctly :-)

they have very limited information and just a small photo on their website:
Greco FA80 ES-175 blonde -69, beg. (Stockholm) - Jam.se
The descibtion translates to:

Wow, almost unplayed with super flamy maple top, all original parts, made in japan, exact copy of a es-175, includes original hardcase.

This one looks very similar (to me at least): EXC 1970s Greco ES175 ES 175 Archtop RARE Lawsuit Hollow Jazz Japan Vintage | eBay
apart from that the tuners were different, didn't have a star on them, and the pickup covers didn't have the Greco logo.

The neck felt quite narrow. Much more like my strat (43mm) than my Loar (44,5 mm) (but though with a deaper neck profile than a strat). It might have been 41mm, but regardless of what specs it has or has not the neck felt really great.

In my humble experience, a crave is never "fully" satisfied with anything else but the real deal...

But there will always come a new craving anyway
I guess part of a satisfaction is finding a great deal too
Owning a great guitar that you make a connection with is really great, but it is even greater if you think you feel you got it for a good price, rather than thinking about every now and then if you perhaps paid a bit too much for it.

[BigMikeinNJ]

So what ARE you gonna do kid, debate with yourself more on this ??

That Gibson is gorgeous. And you always will pay more for something with a very established name. But I bet you the extra money you will spend, if at some time you decide to flip the Gibson for something else, say a Gibson L-5, you won't have as much trouble selling it as you would a Greco, Ibanez and so on.

I've owned a number of decent 175 copies and they were really great. One of the little details that the Japanese (FujiGen and so on) missed with most of them (the new Grecos have it) is the mahogany neck of the older Gibson 175s, I always figured that added a warmer signature to the tone that maple necks don't give you... The devil is in the details with these older guitars, and I would venture to say your guitar is likely a late 70s model.

But for a little more you got a Gibson, and if it's one of the good ones well you will be spending your time playing, not posting here any more... LOL

Good luck deciding.

And by the way I post in BOLD text because I am legally blind, not yelling or shouting at you (yet, LOL !!).

[Max405]

Back in 1949 the ES175 was cheap $175

Can you imagine that? I should have bought a truckload of them. Even if I threw out all the ones that I would have received with broken headstocks, I would still be sittin pretty right now.
Only one problem, I wasn't born yet in 1949..

[rio]

I have to disagree. My 175 craving was filled by getting a '77 D'agostino 175 (rebranded Ibanez). It plays great and sounds amazing. And it was 700 bucks so I had cash left over to buy another guitar. I'm sure it is not the same for everyone, but I don't feel like I am stuck with a cheap (quality-wise) and inferior guitar. It is one of the cheaper guitars I own monetarily, but it gets played more than the others!

e: Sorry, to chime in on the topic at hand - yes 2000 bucks for a lawsuit guitar seems like you are just so close to getting to Gibson prices, and at that point it is a little harder to justify - particularly when you know you have a beautiful and well playing instrument for sale here that is practically falling into your lap.

I spent 1500 on an Ibanez 2630 (335 style) and in the same shop could have bought a Gibson 335 for the same price. The Ibanez sounded better, played better and felt better. The shop owner was surprised at my choice as he said most would have gone for the name but that if I didn't buy that guitar one of his workers was going to (it had just been put out for sale).

[jzucker]

i have had experience with '50s, '60s, '70s, '80s, '90s and 2000s 175s.

The '50s and '60s guitars are different beasts. They are lighter builds with thinner tops and much more acoustic (louder) tone. Whether you want or like this is subjective of course. I have found that these guitars are much more lively but are also more feedback prone.

Gibson experienced a number of warranty issues with the 2 pickup guitars and on all models including the L5 gradually thickened the tops (and possibly the bracing) in order to avoid the tops sinking.

Joe Pass was using an early '60s 175 for that seminal joy spring recording. I have found that you can get a reasonable facsimile of that sound using the '70s and '80s guitars although the Tim Shaw equipped '80s 175s are extremely dark sounding. IMO, it's harder to get the seminal 175 tone out of the '90s and later instruments. The later guitars are more electric sounding.

I have also owned a number of boutique laminate guitars such as the Holst and the Painter guitars. IMO, they do not capture the vibe of an early 175 but they have other unique attributes of their own which may make them more or less desirable depending on taste.

All of this is subjective of course and whether any of them are good or bad is a matter of personal opinion.

I have played a number of the japanese 175 clones and IMO, they are decent copies of the '70s and '80s series gibson 175s.

[vintagelove]

Just to be clear, when I said Grecos are nice guitars....

i had a les Paul custom, great guitar, but I never bonded with the bulky neck. Recently stumbled on a Greco that you really couldn't tell it's not a Gibson until your two feet away, hell with my eyes you need to be eight inches!!!

Same weight, beautiful build quality, sounds great, I like the neck profile better.

1/6 the price of a Gibson. However, if a Gibson had the same price sitting next to it, you would be crazy not to go for that. Hence my go with the Gibson comment.

[Dennis D]

...and in 1962, I bought a 175 new for $250. ....w/single humbucking pickup.......and FWIW, there weren't exactly a truckload sitting around to buy....
.....I also bought a new Greco 335 style around that same time for $125.
......In 1962 - - remember the British Invasion - there weren't as many jazz boxes available to buy. The makers could sell every rock guitar they could build, so why mess with archtops, I guess....
.....The Greco had a fingerboard that was 'scratch yer head' good. But that was all -- the p/u's were awful, the electronics were cheap, but it was entry level, and did that job ok.

.....MHO - I'd buy one today for '60's 'Harmony' money, but not 2/3 the price of a 175....


..again, MHO......hope this helps.....

[Para]

Gibson stopped putting mahogany necks on 175's around 76 they were 3 piece maple with a volute and a 14 degree headstock pitch.

[Stringswinger]

Gibson corrected the maple neck in 82. A 175 should not have a maple neck. Nor a volute.

[Jazzman301]

A Guild ce100 will get you every bit of that 175 vibe.

[BigMikeinNJ]

And if the Greco is from around 1980-85 those are Dry Z pickups, I've seen Ibanez FG100's with the pickup stamped on the back Super 58 and a big Z for Dry Z. Very nice articulate true PAF tone.

[jzucker]

Gibson corrected the maple neck in 82. A 175 should not have a maple neck. Nor a volute.

Kreisberg sounds great on his maple neck 175 with a volute! The Ibanez single cut guitars in the '80s had maple necks and they were basically 175 type instruments in terms of construction and bracing but many had maple necks and a round cutaway and they sound great. Here's one example.

[citizenk74]

Kreisberg sounds great on his maple neck 175 with a volute! The Ibanez single cut guitars in the '80s had maple necks and they were basically 175 type instruments in terms of construction and bracing but many had maple necks and a round cutaway and they sound great. Here's one example.

Phenomenal! Just...wow!

[BigMikeinNJ]

Yup that is an FG100 George Benson is playing, Super 58 and some say Super 58/Dry Z on the back of the pickup. Scroll down a bit on the following thread:

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