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The reason I say that those who buy the expensive custom shop and boutique T and S guitars are fools is that they are NOT rare like the real pre CBS stuff. As long as the fools shell out the dough, they will keep making them.
Les Pauls from the 50's (and their custom shop ilk) do follow the same pattern, but the Vintage Lesters are even more expensive as they are even more rare. They were a failure for Gibson in their day, which is why they were discontinued. While they were marketed to Jazz guitarists, jazz guitarists rejected them (we can't be seen playing guitars without F-hole, by golly!). The ES-335 performed much better for Gibson in the marketplace. But again, pre Beatles (Pre-Norlin?) ES guitars are rare and have become status guitars.
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06-15-2015 11:48 PM
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Gotta go w/ Jack on this one. Glue up a body blank, or use a one-piece, run it through a band saw, then some sanding and rounding. (In the old days), clamp on the neck pocket and pu templates...rout out the holes...nowadays CNC stuff is more precise and tolerances are finer, and more uniform. Voila, the tele or strat body blank is done...a little bit of sanding to fit a neck in, and we're pretty close to being done....construction-wise....couple of more holes to put in pots, and a channel for wires
Originally Posted by jzucker
Additional point----" hand work" is not always better than mass production. The U.S. Firearms industry really championed standardized parts manufacturing. At the Springfield Arsenal in MA, there is an exhibition describing how the U.S. Olympic Rifle team competed in the 1900 (04 ?) London Olympics using $16, standard American production rifles of the time. The British team used expensive "bespoke" rifles which cost around $1500-$2000 (BIG bucks at that time)....guess who won?! BTW, firearms probably have less "fudge room" in their manufacturing precision than musical instruments....an explosive cartridge that doesn't chamber and discharge properly can be fatal to the person who is unlucky enough to be firing this weapon.
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There are so many different points of view being discussed, disagreed upon and argued in this thread that it's no wonder Zucker asked the question "are we really having this discussion?" Originally Posted by goldenwave77
I seriously doubt that anyone with a properly working mind would ever even consider that building (assembling) a parts caster . . or manufacturing a plain vanilla slab type guitar in a plant utilizing automation, requires as much craftsmanship or would take as long as crafting an L5 . . or even building a 175. I don't recall anyone in this thread saying so.
The questions, as I see them, are whether it requires skilled craftsmanship to *hand craft* a T or S type guitar using traditional boutique luthier methods and hand tools. I submit that it does indeed require a great deal of skill and craftsmanship to build the type teles and strats that some of these high end luthiers are building . . . and it absolutely can not be done in 3-1/2 hours.
The other questions (statements) I see is whether or not people are "fools" to pay exorbitant amounts of money to have a slab type guitar hand crafted to his/her liking. I would suggest . . actually, I'd assertively state, that it's unfairly judgemental for anyone to classify a person as a fool for spending their money . . their own personal earned money . . . in any way they please.
It's also very unrealistic to compare the process of hand crafting a stringed instrument, to the required exactness of precision machined parts used in manufacturing fire arms.
The various points of view being debated within this thread are each worthy of a thread of their own.
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Well....no one is saying people are not free to spend their money as they see fit...so people always have a "right" to do this...no one can go to a court of law and have that court enjoin you from buying an expensive guitar. Really, you are at "liberty" to do as you please in this matter---assuming you have sufficient funds, no court can stop you from doing as you wish.
As far as the wisdom of doing so, well we all have opinions:
I don't have a "dog in this hunt". I don't make my living making, repairing, selling boutique-y instruments, nor do I have an extensive collection of these instruments, so I am not emotionally/financially invested in defending/promoting their desirability.
I am offering a point a view, and something to think about.
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Which has *ZERO* to do with my point. I never said one was more expensive to produce. I was *ONLY* pointing out that the level of craftsmanship was way higher on the 175. Originally Posted by John A.
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Yet, that is the only point I was making and folks have argued and argued 'til they are blue in the face. I seriously think a huge amount of the arguments that come up in these gear forums come from folks who have a monetary or emotional attachment to their particular choice$ Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Jack Zucker is bang on.
I've been following the waves of ever increasingly expensive Fender clones over at TGP for years now. It reached its feverish climax around 2007 just before the crash when guys were getting in these really strange cagefights regarding D'Pergo and Detemple. Every 6 months, D'Pergo would come out with another level of esoteric and expensive refinement.
Aged vintage
Aged vintage classic
Aged vintage classic reclaimed submerged wood
Aged vintage classic reclaimed submerged wood machined by the light of the new moon on Walpugisnacht.
$6-7-8-9K guys wouldn't even say what they paid.
D'Pergo would charge you to speak to him on the phone - charges waived if you ordered one of his guitars.
Wait times - 9 months, a year, longer.
All the big hitters on TGP lining up to explain how the latest incarnation nails those elusive macrodynamics and microdynamics. No easy feat. Seriously.
Detemple machines his own metal parts and had a line on the last actual celluloid tortoiseshell for pickguards at $275 a pop.
Didn't D'Pergo end up threatening to sue TGP because it was a forum that allowed negative comment of D'Pergo.
Crazy $h*t
Those larrivee Bakersfileds are nice and they sold new for $1600 cdn. I have a nice ash and maple USGCG I put together with top shelf parts for $1200.
It's a Tele for pete's sake. Doesn't matter how much you paid, you can either play like Campilongo or you can't.
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Pre-CBS guitars are also scarce because so many have been taken off the market by collectors who keep them in display cases and bank vaults. I remember when they actually weren't all that scarce. When I first started playing in the late 70s, pre-CBS Strats were 2-3x the price of new CBS-models, not 20x, and there were always several hanging on the walls in every guitar store. Originally, there was a valid reason for pre-CBS instruments to command a premium -- they really were better than CBS instruments for the most part, but it got silly not to long after. When CBS-era guitars started commanding vintage prices ca. 15-20 years ago, I shook my head. When they started "reissuing" CBS Strats, I said "WTF"? When they started charging a premium for a relic'ed reissue of a CBS Strat, I decided it was time to pay attention to something safer and saner, like Collateralized Debt Obligations ... Originally Posted by Stringswinger
John
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John,
In 1980, a friend and I formed a rock band and we decided to buy Strats. I bought a blonde 77 hardtail for $250. He paid $650 for a players grade 63. His guitar was better than mine. He kept his and today it is worth about 10 K. I sold mine, but if I had kept it, it would be worth about 2K. He made the better investment all around. The problem for me is that you can buy a 62 reissue that is as good as his 63 and way better than my 77 for about $1500.
Somewhere, Leo Fender is laughing, I'm sure...
Cheers,
Marc
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Regarding the above comparison between a Fender American Vintage and a Fender Custom Shop:
I own a Fender American Vintage 52 Telecaster (around 1800 euros) and a Fender Custom shop Telecaster 59 Heavy
Relic (around 3000 euros or more).
In my opinion the Custom shop is much better than the American Vintage.
This thread reminds me of other threads where people are saying that it's foolish to spend 2500 $ (or euros) for a Gibson 175 .....
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20k for a guitar amp is crazy. Only a fool would buy one at that price.
The guy who can sell them at that price is pretty shrewd...
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Paolo,
I have played some great Custom shop strats and teles and some mediocre ones. Same with the vintage reissues. I have played some mediocre pre CBS Fenders, they are not all special. At this point with selling fees and shipping costs being so high, I think playing a guitar before buying is pretty wise. I am glad you like your Custom Shop guitar.
Cheers,
Marc
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In ca. '82, A friend of mine decided to quit playing and gave me his '72 Strat. It had all the classic CBS flaws -- loose neck pocket, messed up 3-bolt/microtilt joint, skinny frets, rusty hardware, ice-pick-in-the-ear tone, all kinds of buzzes and noises. I hung onto it for about a year, and finally gave it back because it was such a mess; for free, I didn't even want that guitar. Shrug. I bought a new American Std Strat in 89 for $500 (found the receipt recently), after trying tons of Fenders and clones. It was the one I preferred among many above and below it in price, and I can't say that I've ever come across anything I liked much better since. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
John
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In 1953 you could have picked up a Fender Telecaster for $200. It was an excellent choice for the type of music that was emerging, and remains so today. You need to be pretty well off to afford to purchase that '53 today. However, you can purchase a Nash, Larivee, Danocaster, or some CS Fenders for about the same, inflation-adjusted price as that $200 in 1953--meaning that if your grandparents bought you some Savings Bonds then in the amount of $200, you'd have enough to go out and purchase a guitar that is as functional as that Telecaster was in 1953.
You can move down or up from that point--about $1,700 today--but that amount will get you a derned good solid-body guitar that looks, sounds, and plays like a '53 from any of several makers these days.
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All I know is that I would rather be the guy selling the 5K Tele than the guy buying one. YMMV
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PSA
The Long and McQuade Downtown Vancouver BC has a new Larrivee Bakersfield in butterscotchfor $1699 cdn which is $1522 USD all taxes in, shipping extra. They don't have this guitar on their online store anymore but the local store might arrange shipping.
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Don't know if this is really relevant, but I've owned 4 T-type guitars. I think if I ever get another one, I'll put it together from Warmoth and/or USACG parts.
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I own a nice Fender currently, but I'm thinking about selling and getting a Nash with the big, fat neck.
There are parts-o-casters and there are parts-o-casters. Those Nash "T" models just feel, play, and sound _right_. Some folks don't like the way that they look, but heck...that's nothing. Wait 'til they see the guitarist. I am heavily relic'd.
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nash's are inconsistent. One thing I dislike is that a lot of them have the strings too close to the edge of the fingerboard
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Anybody here have any high end Teles? Curious because, on other forums, there is no way a guy would tell you after dropping $7K, "it sounds and feels about the same as my $1300 52RI."
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I was poking around Emerald City Guitars in Seattle yesterday. They have a bunch of vintage (50s) Fender guitars selling for $10,000-$50,000. (Yes, you read that right). For the most part, these tend to look like they've been rode hard and put away wet. Which some people go for. (I initially liked the road worn models until I saw several hanging up next to one another and realized they were all relic'ed in the same way, in the same places, likely by some computer controlled machine).
What got me was these were factory built production line guitars that aren't especially rare or unusual. I mean, there were several 50s Strats in this one shop alone.
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What's the opinion on any tonal differences between a Tele Thinline (hollow top half with an F hole) and a regular sb? Originally Posted by Drifter
I've got a TL and feel there's some difference but haven't really done an A/B comparison through the same amp. If you tweak the amp settings and roll off the guitar volume a little (there's supposed to be a high boost on the last 20% of the vol pot) you can get a decent jazz tone as many know.
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