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Fair enough and quite pragmatic. However, the discourse sets in when the actual intelligence and reasoning of those choosing to spend big bucks on said items, is being questioned by those who believe that people who do so are stupid. Some guys choose to spend 3 grand to get laid when they can visit Hunts Point (New York City) and get a quicky for 50 bucks. So what?
Originally Posted by yebdox
I just don't see the need to be judgemental of others, when what they choose to do with their money has no impact what so ever on a player being able to find the tools they need to create music with, at affordable prices.
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06-14-2015 11:41 AM
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Forget $1200. You can get an assembly line Tele-style guitar from $150 all day long (Rondo, used Squiers, etc) and put another few hundred into it and end up with something that will rival a $2000 Tele or Tele-style. You're not getting the attention to detail (time=money), or special "tone woods" (gawd, I hate when that word is used in conjunction with a solid body). Nor will you recoup your cost when selling (then again, you'll likely take a hit if you resell a boutique Tele; I see this all the time on tdpri). Nor will it ever become vintage unless some guitar hero makes it popular years after the brand goes out of production.
But it's gonna sound good and play nice.
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Jim . . all of what you say is true and correct . . . except for maybe your perception of the difficulty in making a tilt back peg head??? You glue up some wood. trace a pattern, put the wood on a band saw and cut it to conformity of the pattern trace. Kids were doing shit like that in grammar school wood shop classes. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
The question was never that one couldn't find, or *assemble* a vreay good tele type guitar for under $2,500 . . or as Mr. Beaumont said, even for under $1,500. I think the (implied) question was are people stupid for paying more money for a much better hand crafted clone.
We'll just disagree on the skills and craftsmanship required on arch top vs slab. (have you watched what goes into making a Yaron, Kirn, DeTemple slab type guitar? They're a far cry different from a Warmouth parts-caster)
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Patrick. we built about 450 necks with tilt back pegheads. They're not all done with glue and they're not all the shit kids were doing in grammar school. I know what goes into all of these guitars (in fact I'm probably a lot more familiar than most). But what goes into them does not necessarily make them better instruments. I'd would also caution anyone not to discount the quality of Warmoth parts or the talent that has gone into some of them. Some incredibly talented people have worked there over the years. Originally Posted by Patrick2
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Had to add this last comment...And yet Jim, your guitars (which were certainly inspired by teles) demonstrated incredible attention to detail, workmanship, artistry , etc., and were exceptions to the rule. But your designs were also incredibly original and not clones. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
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Three hours and thirty minutes.
That is the absolute total time it takes for Fender to manufacture their guitars. From start to finish.
No no comment as to good or bad, but except to say clearly they got it down to a science.
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in the good old days, during the golden years when the vintage strats and teles which now go for $30k were made, housewives were making them. The reason, was that it was unskilled labor and they couldn't get men to work for the low salaries they were paying. Originally Posted by NSJ
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well i'm a huge tele fan........... and i too can't justify paying the prices i see some T types selling for ....
to me the simpler the better ...forget the fancy finish and the trim...a T type/tele to me is a 50's type tele which is a basic slab body with a fat neck and some very simple pickups ...............
but thats just me
i recently played a tom Anderson T type and was well impressed ...but the price ...put me off
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I'm not sure it's fair to say that the "housewives" we're unskilled. The production numbers were nowhere near where they are now so there was likely a lot more hand finishing. I met one "housewife" over at G&L who had been there since the Fender days. She seemed quite skilled. Originally Posted by jzucker
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Not challenging your experience or knowledge here Jim. But, while I've not built 450 necks with tilt back peg heads, I've seen enough of the process to know that it's nothing more than what I summed it up to be. Also, if they're not done with glue, then they're done as a one piece neck. They're certainly not biscuit joined or doweled. So a one piece neck would be the same process, only the one piece neck is simpler. You get a chunk of wood adequate in size . . you trace a pattern of the neck from a side profile . . . then you cut that traced neck shape out with a band saw. Of course, you then go on to further shape and profile the neck. But, these things are relatively identical in process, whether its a tilt back peg head, or a straight shot all the way through, as on the strat and tele. This ain't rocket science we're talking about here. The skill and talent is relevant only when finishing the shaping and profiling, installing and finishing frets, etc. But, that's similar on any neck regardless of head stock angle. Go to 9:25 in on this Gibson tour. Originally Posted by Jim Soloway
https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=VbU1R4KDymw
Further, I see no one here discrediting the quality of Warmouth parts, certainly not myself anyway. Also didn't see or hear anyone discrediting the quality and/or playability and tone from a warmouth parts built slab guitar. All I see and hear . . . and offer my own opinions on, is that it requires a good deal of skill, knowledge and craftsmanship to *hand craft* and build a strat or tele to the level of the builders mentioned herein. For those with the means and desire to do so . . there's no "harm no foul" that I can see.
You said there a limit to what you would spend on a T type guitar. That's cool . . . and I feel the same way that you do about that. But, there are those who see a value in a $5,000 or $6,000 T (or S) type guitar and are willing to pay that amount. Does that make them fools or wrong to do so?
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Navdeep . . not sure what you're talking about here. My post showing The Gibson Gals was in response to the comments made about unskilled housewives being used to make guitars. Had nothing at all to do with automated processes which do not require skilled labor as much as they require assemble line workers. Big diffewrence there . . and as you say . . apples and oranges. Originally Posted by NSJ
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Patrick, I rarely have an opinion on how or why other people spend their money only how I spend mine. If someone else sees value in spending $5k or $6k (or more) on an S or T-type guitar, I assume they have their reasons. Just because I don't share those reasons doesn't make them foolish. Originally Posted by Patrick2
As for the rest, I think I'll just agree to disagree with you and leave it at that.
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again, i think people with $5k teles gonna beat their chest a little at this. As someone else said, smoke-em-if-you-got-dem. I have no problem with someone spending $5k on a tele as opposed to golf clubs or a boat.
My only point is that i'll put my 175 up against a tele any day of the week in terms of craftsmanship and I dare anyone making a parts tele to have the skill to make a great archtop whereas anyone who makes an archtop can probably make a tele in their sleep.
It's like a rocker vs. a jazzer. Once you can play jazz it's relatively simple to learn the nuances of playing over blues rock tunes. The other way around isn't quite as simple.
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This is one of the many frustrations for the small makers like myself. Here's a true story about one of my customers...This guy comes in shopping me real hard for a custom instrument and beating me up about the price of everything. He complains about how all the upgrades he wants are so expensive. I give him a total price and he just says it's too much so we don't go ahead with it. A couple of months later he comes back to me wanting me to repair the L-5 he just bought (for about twice what I quoted him for a custom hand built archtop). It had all kinds of fret buzzes and rattles and the pots were loose so he couldn't use the controls. He then complained about the quality of his Gibson. I handed him one of my personal guitars which was comparable to his L-5 (mounted humbucker, parallel bracing, 17", cutaway) and it was clear that my instrument was better by just about any metric other than resale. I make an excellent instrument but I can't charge what I feel they are worth because most players want it to say Gibson on the headstock. That's why I always cringe at threads like the Commissioning a custom archtop thread. How many people say things like "Nothing sounds like a Gibson L-5 except a Gibson L-5." and "Custom archtops don't sound any better than an off the shelf Gibson."? Originally Posted by jzucker
But ES-175's aren't hand made archtops. They are a factory made instrument just like Fenders they just require a few more people. They have one person that laminates the tops, another to put wood in a bending form for the sides, another to glue tops on etc... Gibson isn't hiring luthiers either. They are hiring factory workers that they train to do a specific job. Originally Posted by jzucker
I don't know that many jazz guitarists really care about craftsmanship and artisan quality. They are more brand conscious than most any other musician out there. Well maybe they do care about craftsmanship and artisan quality but they sure don't want to pay you much for it. I'm really not trying to bitch about it but just giving you guys the small makers' perspective. Plus I really shouldn't be griping, I'm selling them steadily and my prices are about to go up so maybe in a few more years I might actually be able to make a little money from this gig. Here's hoping. Originally Posted by jzucker
P.S. I have made a few Tele style instruments and I made everything except the metal bits and the pickup and yes they are much easier to make but they are also much easier to sell. Now that I think about it maybe I should go into the $5000 Tele business....
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Hammertone said "I also say that this thread is boring without pictures, so:" Here are my two.
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how heavy is that larrivee tele? Always wanted one of those.
And Jason, regardless of whether a 175 is hand made or not, so much more goes into making a 175 (or even a Les Paul for that matter) than a tele.
But really, it's not fair comparing a $2150 175 like I have (1989) to a $5k tele. A better comparison would be an L5 to a Tele. Sorry but you'll never convince me that a tele clone is worth $5k when I can get an L5 for that money.
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I've already mentioned that several times in other threads. Gibson is hiring people off the street and training them in workshops to install frets or pickups or bridges. But as I said before, comparing any archtop to a Tele is kind of silly. The teles are completely CNC made. I realize that sometimes a fret level is required but unless the CNC machines are out of spec , very little has to be hand tuned in one. And frankly, although the instruments in the '50s were made by hand, the level of skill is not much different. Those woman who worked the assembly lines weren't luthiers and they just bolted them together and cranked them out. The CNC machines do a better job. When a guy charges $5k for a tele you are paying for more than just the output of what he produces. Originally Posted by jasonc
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Jack Zucker asked "how heavy is that larrivee tele? " By my scale 7 1/2 lbs. I happened to have my 74 L5S out and for a comparison it weighs 9lbs. What I like about the Larrivee, and I would look for a used one, is the quality of the materials both wood and hardware plus it have a nice fat neck with a 1 3/4" nut width.
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I really like the larrivee quality control. I have looked for one of those bakersfields for a long time but never could find one. Originally Posted by rob taft
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Well I'm sure Fender train their employees too. But your point about archtops being more work than solid bodies won't get any argument from me. The guys like DeTemple who get high prices for their instruments don't bother me nearly as much as the "custom shops" from the guys like Fender. Paying $5,000 for a Fender is just crazy to me. I can't imagine they do anything special to warrant the prices they command. Paying a premium to have a custom shop guy walk over and pick a neck and body out of the same pile of parts doesn't make any sense to me. But if that's the guitar somebody feels they need then more power to them. Even as much as I love getting paid I would have a hard time justifying charging someone 5k for a T-style guitar. I may change my tune if someone wanted to pay that. Anybody want to do an experiment? Somebody offer me 5k to build them a tele and then I'll see how I feel about it. Anybody?
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I imagine a 175 takes more labor hours to build than a Tele because of the nature of its construction, and some of the tasks probably require more skill (e.g., gluing/clamping is trickier than drilling and bolting). But they're both mass produced items, and the manufacturing labor is a relatively small part of the cost of making, marketing, and distributing either of them. That total, all-in cost for making and selling a 175 or a Tele is probably pretty similar. Who knows what relation any of that has to the pricing strategies, though? Originally Posted by jzucker
John
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A tele requires no gluing, clamping, etc. It doesn't require precise machining of a neck joint and gluing / setting of the joint. The amount of labor doesn't even come close. A tele can be entirely machined via cnc carving. Originally Posted by John A.
Look at another angle...There are probably 10,000 amateurs building teles in their garage with no training. When's the last time you saw an amateur gluing up a 175? *AND*, as I said - The used $5k price point I was talking about is more akin to the used price point of an L5. How many amateurs are carving up and gluing an L5 ?
Are we really having this conversation?!? lol
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Yes, there's more labor in a Tele, but similar facilities and machinery costs, logistics, raw materials, dealer finance, advertising, other finance and overhead costs, management, admin, etc . I suspect direct labor costs are a relatively small component of the total for both, and that the all-in costs are much closer than the price differential, which is driven by a lot of things other than cost. Originally Posted by jzucker
John
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The reason that pre CBS Teles and Strats are worth so much is that there are not that many of them. Before the Beatle invasion, guitarists in the US numbered in the thousands, now we number in the millions. Pre CBS Fender was a small company that catered to a small audience of buyers, so not many were made. Now, having one is a status symbol, so well off musicians, pro or otherwise, step up to buy them at stupid prices. Yes, old wood and old magnetic pickups sound good, but I would bet that few of us could tell the difference in a blindfold test.
So the market commands 10k-30k for these rare guitars. The market then is created for 3k-5K Fender Custom shop and boutique clones. A fool and their money are then parted.
Leo designed these to be cheap tools for the working musician. I think that a nicely built one may be worth up to 3K in todays dollars, brand new, but beyond that, I do not get it.
And paying extra to have your guitar beat up, to look like it was mistreated for 30 years is patently absurd.
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That pretty much hit the preverbial nail smack on it's head. Also, the very same thing can be said about the evolution of '58, '59 and '60s bursts . . . to the R8, R9 & R0 concept. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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