So I played a Vintage Johnny Smith today....

[stellarstar]

And I loved it, but coming back home and playing my strat, I don't wanna say when I compare them it's underwhelming, but I guess I expected it to be that much more than just a guitar . What a sound though man, sounded just as I'd expected it to. Would definitely love to get one eventually .

Oh and I started using jazz iii's as well. such a great sounding attack.

[Patrick2]

And I loved it, but coming back home and playing my strat, I don't wanna say when I compare them it's underwhelming, but I guess I expected it to be that much more than just a guitar . What a sound though man, sounded just as I'd expected it to. Would definitely love to get one eventually .

Oh and I started using jazz iii's as well. such a great sounding attack.

There are quite a few different variants of vintage Johnny Smith model guitars. Also, with *vintage* having varying meanings to different people, that widens the field even further. What did you actually play?

[Max405]

I've never bonded with a Guitar that I played at a music store. Its too distracting for me to really feel a Guitar. Plus If I have a guitar at home that melts in my hands, it takes a couple weeks of playing another guitar for me to really sense the differences.
I think your hands, mind and soul mold to a guitar like that over time.

What did you play on it? What did you expect from it that didn't happen? And what are Jazz iii's?

Joe D.

And I loved it, but coming back home and playing my strat, I don't wanna say when I compare them it's underwhelming, but I guess I expected it to be that much more than just a guitar . What a sound though man, sounded just as I'd expected it to. Would definitely love to get one eventually .

Oh and I started using jazz iii's as well. such a great sounding attack.

[Stringswinger]

Jazz iii's are Dunlop picks that are pretty damn good for jazz...I prefer the black ones to the red ones. Different material.

[Patrick2]

I got the Jazz IIIs (black) on recommendation from a few here on this forum. Don't like them at all. Just too small for me.

[Max405]

Oh... I have one of them too. I find them to be too small as well.

Hey has anyone seen that Gibson Johnny Smith with the repaired cracked top and head stock repair? Its on for $4500. Is that a good deal for like, $3500? Its Cherry sunburst. Actually looks like its in nice shape despite all the catastrophic things I mentioned above..
JD

[Bluedawg]

For picks I like the Jazztone from Dunop

Dunlop Manufacturing :: Guitar Picks :: :: JD Jazztones?

I like the rounded tips, especially the 204 version. Probably too small for some folks, but the 207 is similar and a little bigger.

[Flyin' Brian]

I've never bonded with a Guitar that I played at a music store. Its too distracting for me to really feel a Guitar. Plus If I have a guitar at home that melts in my hands, it takes a couple weeks of playing another guitar for me to really sense the differences.
I think your hands, mind and soul mold to a guitar like that over time.

What did you play on it? What did you expect from it that didn't happen? And what are Jazz iii's?

Joe D.

I had the exact opposite reaction at least once and that's how I ended up with a Heritage Sweet 16 from that little store in East Rutherford NJ.

[Stringswinger]

Dunlop makes an oversized Jazz iii (they call it the Jazz iii XL IIRC) for those who like a normal sized plectrum....

[mr quick]

Dunlop makes an oversized Jazz iii (they call it the Jazz iii XL IIRC) for those who like a normal sized plectrum....

Yeah, I juse Jazz III super grips or whatever they're called for "regular" jazz playing, but use the III XL's for rhythm/studio/other genres

[Max405]

I had the exact opposite reaction at least once and that's how I ended up with a Heritage Sweet 16 from that little store in East Rutherford NJ.

rutherford music exchange.. I bought an Alvarez Yairi from that store. The owner used to work for sweetest sounds. That was where I saw my 1st heritage guitars. A rep brought them in one day. My and my friends Augie and Joey were blown away by the quality of the guitars then just like I am now. Do you still have the sweet16 Brian?

[Patrick2]

rutherford music exchange.. I bought an Alvarez Yairi from that store. The owner used to work for sweetest sounds. That was where I saw my 1st heritage guitars. A rep brought them in one day. My and my friends Augie and Joey were blown away by the quality of the guitars then just like I am now. Do you still have the sweet16 Brian?

The owner was Ed Capuano. Used to work for Sweetest Sounds. Ed died quite some time ago. He was a very good friend of Vinny Corrao. He had Vinny and Tal at RME a couple of times in duo performance and clinic. That's where I first got to know Tal. What a great human being he was. I've got a great video of Vinny and Tal in a very informal setting there one evening. Wish I knew how to post it here. I think Eddie Cadillac was the other owner who took control after Capuano passed. Vinny bought his Golden Eagle from Ed. Vinny traded a vintage blond Epi Emperor and cash for the Golden Eagle. That was in 1993. Vinny spec'd the GE with the Johnny Smith 1-3/4" nut width and split block inlays. Not sure if Vinny still owns that guitar. He's always playing his Yamaha arch top.

When Vinny first introduced me to Tal, Tal thought I was some sort of a music exec or agent. (I was dressed in formal business attire). The first thing Tal said to me, after I complimented how well he and Vinny worked with each other, was . . . "Ok . . well find us some work, will ya?" Imagine that?? Tal Farlow practically begging for a gig.

[Max405]

Great post Patrick. Ed was a good guy, God rest his soul.
i think a younger guy named tony took over for Ed when he passed. he also worked at sweetest sounds.
Funny thing, when Vinny was younger, he and my dad bought there guitars at the same time. Vinny told me my dad bought a Switchmaster. I never saw that one. Only the Es175d. My dad always emphasized the 2 pickups on the 175. I guess if he bought a Switchmaster before that, he must of had a thing for pickups. I could see Tal thinking you were some big shot. You have that kind of presence about you.
Im getting my Tal tomorrow. I'm excited.
JD

[Flyin' Brian]

rutherford music exchange.. I bought an Alvarez Yairi from that store. The owner used to work for sweetest sounds. That was where I saw my 1st heritage guitars. A rep brought them in one day. My and my friends Augie and Joey were blown away by the quality of the guitars then just like I am now. Do you still have the sweet16 Brian?

Yes I do....custom thin body.

[Patrick2]

Great post Patrick. Ed was a good guy, God rest his soul.
i think a younger guy named tony took over for Ed when he passed. he also worked at sweetest sounds.
Funny thing, when Vinny was younger, he and my dad bought there guitars at the same time. Vinny told me my dad bought a Switchmaster. I never saw that one. Only the Es175d. My dad always emphasized the 2 pickups on the 175. I guess if he bought a Switchmaster before that, he must of had a thing for pickups. I could see Tal thinking you were some big shot. You have that kind of presence about you.
Im getting my Tal tomorrow. I'm excited.
JD

Nice!! I didn't know you were getting a Tal. I've got to get over to the restaurant and see Vinny and Aldo. Maybe this Friday. Did you ever pick up Vinny's CD with Aldo . . "Jazz in Sync X3"? Amazingly, it's Vinny's only CD as a project leader. He's got a really ass kicking drummer with him on the CD. Vinny does a solo of Lush Life that's just way off the charts outstanding. Also does a couple of Grant Green tunes. Vinny pretty much channels GG quite a bit. He also does It's You or No One . . which is really cool. Because, I also have it on the same thumb drive (that's in the USB port in my Expedition with Sync) as Tal's version and Johnny Smith's version. So, I press a button on the steering wheel . . the little lady says . . "Say a command". I tell her . . "Play track, It's you or No One". She then says to me . . "Playing track It's you or No One". Then, Vinny's version comes up first, immediately followed by Tal's, immediately followed by Johnny Smith's. All three are great (obviously) . . But, Tal's version is really special. What he does with the head is simply amazing. His improv is by far the most lyrical of the three, IMO. Johnny over dubbed some of his lines with harmonies of his improv, which really surprised me. Disappointed me a bit, too.

[sgcim]

Nice!! I didn't know you were getting a Tal. I've got to get over to the restaurant and see Vinny and Aldo. Maybe this Friday. Did you ever pick up Vinny's CD with Aldo . . "Jazz in Sync X3"? Amazingly, it's Vinny's only CD as a project leader. He's got a really ass kicking drummer with him on the CD. Vinny does a solo of Lush Life that's just way off the charts outstanding. Also does a couple of Grant Green tunes. Vinny pretty much channels GG quite a bit. He also does It's You or No One . . which is really cool. Because, I also have it on the same thumb drive (that's in the USB port in my Expedition with Sync) as Tal's version and Johnny Smith's version. So, I press a button on the steering wheel . . the little lady says . . "Say a command". I tell her . . "Play track, It's you or No One". She then says to me . . "Playing track It's you or No One". Then, Vinny's version comes up first, immediately followed by Tal's, immediately followed by Johnny Smith's. All three are great (obviously) . . But, Tal's version is really special. What he does with the head is simply amazing. His improv is by far the most lyrical of the three, IMO. Johnny over dubbed some of his lines with harmonies of his improv, which really surprised me. Disappointed me a bit, too.

Are you saying Johnny Smith made it seem like he was doing fast double stops, when he was actually overdubbing harmony to his single-line solo?
How do you know he did this? Did he do that on any other tunes?

[SamBooka]

Back off topic for a moment..

People who dont like the jazz III picks because they are too small, yes there are full size version but there is also one that is a little larger. The John Pettrucci signature picks from dunlop are very similar to black jazz IIIs but a bit larger but no so large as a typical 351

[wintermoon]

Are you saying Johnny Smith made it seem like he was doing fast double stops, when he was actually overdubbing harmony to his single-line solo?
How do you know he did this? Did he do that on any other tunes?

the only recording I know of Smith playing 'it's you or no one' is from a record called "The Sound Of The Johnny Smith Guitar". there are no overdubs, just double stops. never heard him overdub anything.....

[Max405]

the only recording I know of Smith playing 'it's you or no one' is from a record called "The Sound Of The Johnny Smith Guitar". there are no overdubs, just double stops. never heard him overdub anything.....

I listened to it over and over. He played the notes in one pass at the same time. I couldn't do it, But I don't think there is anything he couldn't do short of playing the drums on the guitar while he was playing the guitar, bass and piano.
JD

[Cunamara]

Johnny Smith did do at least one overdubbed piece.

I don't think that's physically possible without overdubbing.

[Patrick2]

the only recording I know of Smith playing 'it's you or no one' is from a record called "The Sound Of The Johnny Smith Guitar". there are no overdubs, just double stops. never heard him overdub anything.....

Yep. That's the album I'm referencing. But, I was mistaken in saying that the over dubbing was during the improv. It was during the head intro and the head outro . . not the improv. I just went back and listened to it again. If he played those counter melodies and harmonies in one take . . then I'm even more impressed by his talents than I was before . . and I've always considered him to be a master. Please do me a favor . . go back and give it another listen. I'm sure guys like yourself, sgcim, Joe DeNisco have better ears for these things than I do. But, it sure seems like over dubbing to me.

[wintermoon]

[Flyin' Brian]

Yep. That's the album I'm referencing. But, I was mistaken in saying that the over dubbing was during the improv. It was during the head intro and the head outro . . not the improv. I just went back and listened to it again. If he played those counter melodies and harmonies in one take . . then I'm even more impressed by his talents than I was before . . and I've always considered him to be a master. Please do me a favor . . go back and give it another listen. I'm sure guys like yourself, sgcim, Joe DeNisco have better ears for these things than I do. But, it sure seems like over dubbing to me.

Those aren't overdubs. Johnny played many things in thirds, triads and with contrapuntal motion. And there are no overdubs in Walk Don't Run either. Johnny spoke extensively in interviews about noticing how B-3 players would sometimes play a note with one finger and then place a different finger on that note to sustain it while they played other parts of a line or moved to a new chord. He adapted that to guitar. And remember that his hands were very large. He could fret a 6th string F on the first fret and a 1st string Bb on the 6th fret. Thus his almost impossible to play chord clusters. I have the Mosaic Box set or Roost recordings in addition to other albums like "The Sound Of", "Kaleidoscope" and other later albums. I think that there are maybe one or two songs that had overdubs on them including Lullaby of Birdland, but Johnny was very straightforward about mentioning that.

Moonlight in Vermont
This was when I was working at NBC. I had a little quintet Stan Getz was featured with the group some of the time and we were featured on this show each week. Sanford Gold who was a friend of mine at NBC took an air check of some of our music along to Teddy Reig who owned Roost Records. This man liked it and wanted to put out a 78. So we did Taboo, which we thought would be the one to go because it had lots of rhythm and, you know, was flashy. On the other side we did Moonlight in Vermont, and I was amazed that this tune became so popular. I guess it was because the DJs liked it. Harmonically it's very simple vertical voicing. If I were to write this out for a sax section it would be just like I would play it on the guitar. This is how I think of the instrument - in terms of orchestrating. But of course, on the guitar it can be difficult because it involves a reach. The hardest thing to do on the guitar is to play a chord melody and play it legato, because there's always that spacing while you're changing chords. I learned the technique from observing a Hammond organ player - this was before they had reverb or anything. They had to develop a technique where, when they were changing chords they would hold one note down to keep a tone going, like a pivot while moving the other parts. Well, by voicing these chords and using the melody on the same string you can connect these chords and make it sound legato. That's why I did that way and I chose a key where I could keep most of the melody on the same string to give me a common fingering.


The entire interview is here. Johnny Smith Interview

He mentions it in this interview as well. Johnny Smith: The Man, The Legend

Another example of him weaving counter melody and harmony.

[Patrick2]

Those aren't overdubs. Johnny played many things in thirds, triads and with contrapuntal motion.

Another example.

Thanks Brian. I'll be listening more carefully and intently now everytime I spin up that tune by Johnny Smith. I still like Tal's version better. All three artists I referenced earlier doing that tune are masters. But, as always with Tal . . when he plays, whether it's embellishing a head, or an improv . . his lines and his musicality just seem to tell a story.
Wintermmon was able to pull that album up and feature that particular tune. I wonder if he could do the same with the Tal version . . on Verve Jazz Masters 41.?

[wintermoon]