So I played a Vintage Johnny Smith today....

[ingeneri]

Just to pile on, those aren't overdubs....Johnny Smith was just that amazing. I prefer the bluesier phrasing hard bop players like Wes, Burrell, or Green, or even Barney Kessel. But IMHO Smith was the best guitarist ever when it comes to technique. As Vic Juris has written, experienced professional guitarists are still trying to figure out how Smith did what he did 50 years later.

Smith didn't consider himself a Jazz guitarist, because he didn't have the focus of contemporaries like Tal Farlow or Jimmy Raney. And its true his phrasing owes alot more to classical guitar (those ludicrous stacked arpeggios) than adapting Charlie Parker or building off Charlie Christian. But, to me, that just makes him even more of a unique and unrivalled voice.

Plus he grew up in Lewiston, Maine abotu two hours from my home town. So, represent!

[Bluedawg]

Sounds like Johhny was just that good ...

This is a guy that learned the complete Concerto De Aranjuez on short notice IIRC

[Patrick2]

Just to pile on, those aren't overdubs....Johnny Smith was just that amazing. I prefer the bluesier phrasing hard bop players like Wes, Burrell, or Green, or even Barney Kessel. But IMHO Smith was the best guitarist ever when it comes to technique. As Vic Juris has written, experienced professional guitarists are still trying to figure out how Smith did what he did 50 years later.

Smith didn't consider himself a Jazz guitarist, because he didn't have the focus of contemporaries like Tal Farlow or Jimmy Raney. And its true his phrasing owes alot more to classical guitar (those ludicrous stacked arpeggios) than adapting Charlie Parker or building off Charlie Christian. But, to me, that just makes him even more of a unique and unrivalled voice.

Plus he grew up in Lewiston, Maine abotu two hours from my home town. So, represent!

Thanks ingeneri. I feel a lot less foolish now . . knowing what Vic Juris stated about experienced professional guitarists not understanding what JS was able to do. I agree . . he was just that amazing.

[Patrick2]

Show off!!! Now, if you really want to impress me . . . try pulling up Vinny Corrao's version of the tune on his CD Jazz in Sync X3. I dare ya . . . . . .

It's actually a pretty obscure CD. Not even sure you'll be able to find it in a google search. I've only been able to find a reference of it on google. But, I think the forum members would be in for a treat being able to hear three great versions from three great jazz guitarists.

[wintermoon]

hey I can pucnch a tune and artist into youtube like everyone else, but I'm no Svengali.

btw, I haven't heard a lot form Corrao in recent years, but back in the 60's he sounded like he was really heavily influenced by Pat Martino, I have a few recordings of him w/organists Richard Groove Holmes and Don Patterson.

[Jabberwocky]

Sounds like Johhny was just that good ...

This is a guy that learned the complete Concerto De Aranjuez on short notice IIRC

And he was self-taught, man! Gives us autodidacts hope.

[wintermoon]

reminds me of the story about a 'rock' player being turned onto George Van Eps and stating 'that's 2 guitar players' and when told it was only one, he didn't believe him...

[Patrick2]

reminds me of the story about a 'rock' player being turned onto George Van Eps and stating 'that's 2 guitar players' and when told it was only one, he didn't believe him...

Yeah . . . and why would he???

[Patrick2]

hey I can pucnch a tune and artist into youtube like everyone else, but I'm no Svengali.

btw, I haven't heard a lot form Corrao in recent years, but back in the 60's he sounded like he was really heavily influenced by Pat Martino, I have a few recordings of him w/organists Richard Groove Holmes and Don Patterson.

yeah . . the eighth notes with few breaths between them are kinda Martino-ish. But, his biggest influence is Grant Green. If you do come across that album, Jazz in Sync X3, you'll definitely here a lot of GG.

[Flyin' Brian]

Sounds like Johhny was just that good ...

This is a guy that learned the complete Concerto De Aranjuez on short notice IIRC

It was actually this.

Schoenberg's Seranade
It wasn't planned for me to play the guitar part and I wouldn't do it again for anything. What happened to me with this piece was this. They'd been working on it for a long time - several months, because it was going to be performed in honour of Schoenberg's 75th birthday with the composer there; but this was before he died and he was very sick so he wasn't there. They had this classic guitarist and he couldn't get it together. Schoenberg had written the piece in actual pitch - in bass and treble clef where it sounds, so they'd even taken the parts out and transposed them an octave higher into the guitar's register. But I guess the poor classic guitarist's problem was that he just couldn't follow direction. So on a Friday afternoon I was leaving NBC and waiting at the elevator and these guys came up to me and said they'd like to talk to me. One of them was a violinist with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, and they told me that Mitropoulos was thinking of scrubbing it. This would be a disaster because this was Friday and the performance was on the following Wednesday; and they had composers who had come from all over the world for the occasion. So, they said, was it possible for me to try to do this piece, and they handed me this thing. I looked at it and I wanted to say that there was just no way. But they said if you're not willing to at least try it they're going to throw it out. So I said when is our first rehearsal, how long do I have to look at this music? They said that Monday morning would be the first rehearsal.
Well, I'm an idiot and I say O.K. So this was Friday, and as usual I didn't have to work Saturday; I went out and made the rounds and really got myself good and juiced up and got to bed about 5 o'clock. At 6 o'clock the phone rang and a guy says the maestro insists on having a rehearsal at 7 o'clock. I couldn't believe it! I hadn't even looked at the music - I'd hidden it under the bed. He says 'I understand that, but the maestro insists and you've got to come up.' So I go up there to his suite and, Oh, my gosh, I felt terrible. I was just hung over; had the shakes - the whole thing. So, boy, I get my box of mistakes out and put the music up there. He gives a down beat, and naturally I couldn't find the neck of the guitar; but when he gave a down beat if I saw that there was something there well I'd hit it. And I guess that impressed him enough in at least one respect: that I could follow direction. So we shambled a bit on this thing and he gave the OK nod and everybody was real happy.
Now, at that time I was working with a man at NBC by the name of Irwin Kostel who had been pianist with my trio as later became chief arranger with Sid Cesar. He was one of the finest musicians I'd ever known. He'd scored all the music for West Side Story, The Sound of Music, all these things, and he'd won all these Academy Awards for his orchestrations. Anyway Irwin and I were real good buddies, so I went out to his house and we spent the whole weekend, day and night - bless his heart - sitting at the piano and guitar going through this music. Well, we rehearsed Monday, and Tuesday, and Wednesday night we performed the work in the theatre in the Museum of Modern Art, and it went perfect. Dimitri Mitropoulos was such a warm, beautiful genius that there was no way you could make a mistake; he just gave you that confidence. And they received that piece so well that we encored the whole 7 movements. As with the recording which we did later, I used my Epiphone Emperor without an amp and I really had to pound to try to get this thing heard. And it's not really all that loud on the recording. Incidentally, that Epiphone was stolen during a break at NBC and I never saw it again.

[Bluedawg]

It was actually this.

Schoenberg's Seranade
It wasn't planned for me to play the guitar part and I wouldn't do it again for anything. What happened to me with this piece was this. They'd been working on it for a long time - several months, because it was going to be performed in honour of Schoenberg's 75th birthday with the composer there; but this was before he died and he was very sick so he wasn't there. They had this classic guitarist and he couldn't get it together. Schoenberg had written the piece in actual pitch - in bass and treble clef where it sounds, so they'd even taken the parts out and transposed them an octave higher into the guitar's register. But I guess the poor classic guitarist's problem was that he just couldn't follow direction. So on a Friday afternoon I was leaving NBC and waiting at the elevator and these guys came up to me and said they'd like to talk to me. One of them was a violinist with the NBC Symphony Orchestra, and they told me that Mitropoulos was thinking of scrubbing it. This would be a disaster because this was Friday and the performance was on the following Wednesday; and they had composers who had come from all over the world for the occasion. So, they said, was it possible for me to try to do this piece, and they handed me this thing. I looked at it and I wanted to say that there was just no way. But they said if you're not willing to at least try it they're going to throw it out. So I said when is our first rehearsal, how long do I have to look at this music? They said that Monday morning would be the first rehearsal.
Well, I'm an idiot and I say O.K. So this was Friday, and as usual I didn't have to work Saturday; I went out and made the rounds and really got myself good and juiced up and got to bed about 5 o'clock. At 6 o'clock the phone rang and a guy says the maestro insists on having a rehearsal at 7 o'clock. I couldn't believe it! I hadn't even looked at the music - I'd hidden it under the bed. He says 'I understand that, but the maestro insists and you've got to come up.' So I go up there to his suite and, Oh, my gosh, I felt terrible. I was just hung over; had the shakes - the whole thing. So, boy, I get my box of mistakes out and put the music up there. He gives a down beat, and naturally I couldn't find the neck of the guitar; but when he gave a down beat if I saw that there was something there well I'd hit it. And I guess that impressed him enough in at least one respect: that I could follow direction. So we shambled a bit on this thing and he gave the OK nod and everybody was real happy.
Now, at that time I was working with a man at NBC by the name of Irwin Kostel who had been pianist with my trio as later became chief arranger with Sid Cesar. He was one of the finest musicians I'd ever known. He'd scored all the music for West Side Story, The Sound of Music, all these things, and he'd won all these Academy Awards for his orchestrations. Anyway Irwin and I were real good buddies, so I went out to his house and we spent the whole weekend, day and night - bless his heart - sitting at the piano and guitar going through this music. Well, we rehearsed Monday, and Tuesday, and Wednesday night we performed the work in the theatre in the Museum of Modern Art, and it went perfect. Dimitri Mitropoulos was such a warm, beautiful genius that there was no way you could make a mistake; he just gave you that confidence. And they received that piece so well that we encored the whole 7 movements. As with the recording which we did later, I used my Epiphone Emperor without an amp and I really had to pound to try to get this thing heard. And it's not really all that loud on the recording. Incidentally, that Epiphone was stolen during a break at NBC and I never saw it again.

That sounds right ... for some reason I thought it was the Orange Juice ... mmm the Aranjuez

[Marty Grass]

Johnny would have to be an above average player to do that without multiple tracks. Hmm.

I'm amazed routinely by him, for decades now.

I did hear some finger squeaks on this recording, so maybe he was human.

Johnny Smith did do at least one overdubbed piece.

I don't think that's physically possible without overdubbing.

[stellarstar]

There are quite a few different variants of vintage Johnny Smith model guitars. Also, with *vintage* having varying meanings to different people, that widens the field even further. What did you actually play?

It's exactly like this one. Vintage 1968 Gibson Johnny Smith Guitar 100 Original | eBay

Owner said it was from around the late 60's early 70's.

[stellarstar]

I've never bonded with a Guitar that I played at a music store. Its too distracting for me to really feel a Guitar. Plus If I have a guitar at home that melts in my hands, it takes a couple weeks of playing another guitar for me to really sense the differences.
I think your hands, mind and soul mold to a guitar like that over time.

What did you play on it? What did you expect from it that didn't happen? And what are Jazz iii's?

Joe D.

I played Wes Montgomery on it. It took a bit of adjusting to play how I usually do since I'm so used to the the ergonomics of solid bodies.
As for expectations, I essentially expected to be play 10-15 thousand dollars better than my current guitar aha. What I did like about it though was that I didn't need to do a whole lot of amp tweaking for an ideal sound. That was the best thing in particular, the ease of tone shaping for a great jazz tone. As for play-ability though, I don't really think an L5 or the like is really for me now though. I think I'd get used to the huge bodies over time though. A Strat feels like an extra limb though.

[Max405]

Hey,
They never play 10-15k better than anything. You just have to want it. Its starts in your head. Then once you have it in your hands, it opens up all kinds of cool nuances that you didn't know could actually happen. A nut job like me can substantiate the purchase of a really expensive archtop, and a clear thinking realist such as yourself can find reason against it. Its totally OK. And, I actually wish I was like you in that respect. I just cant be. Its not in my nature to think clearly sometimes. The only time I do think clearly, is when I have the guitar in my hands and I am playing something. That's reality. You see that all time.
Thanks for sharing your experience with us.
Joe D.
PS, I could never see myself spending 15,000 on an archtop.

I played Wes Montgomery on it. It took a bit of adjusting to play how I usually do since I'm so used to the the ergonomics of solid bodies.
As for expectations, I essentially expected to be play 10-15 thousand dollars better than my current guitar aha. What I did like about it though was that I didn't need to do a whole lot of amp tweaking for an ideal sound. That was the best thing in particular, the ease of tone shaping for a great jazz tone. As for play-ability though, I don't really think an L5 or the like is really for me now though. I think I'd get used to the huge bodies over time though. A Strat feels like an extra limb though.

[Stringswinger]

I own 12 archtops. The most expensive was my 1948 D'Angelico which cost me $9500. The cheapest was my 1946 Epiphone Triumph which cost me $800. Is the DA 12 times better than the EPI (tonewise or playabilty wise)? No. The DA is prettier, and to me guitars are art (as well as tools), so there is value to me in that. The DA has greater demand, so there is a strong probability that my wife and children will enjoy a greater return on the DA when I am gone (I plan on keeping the DA until I am 6 feet under, thank you very much) then on the Epi.

Like it or not, guitars have become an investment commodity. If you want a great playing and sounding jazz guitar at the lowest price, IMO you will do better with a Japanese made Ibanez than a Gibson. But I also think that you and your family will come out ahead financially with the Gibby over time.

[Klatu]

Where did you get your Epiphone Triumph for $800?

[Bluedawg]

Where did you get your Epiphone Triumph for $800?

And when did he get it .... 1980?

[stellarstar]

I own 12 archtops. The most expensive was my 1948 D'Angelico which cost me $9500. The cheapest was my 1946 Epiphone Triumph which cost me $800. Is the DA 12 times better than the EPI (tonewise or playabilty wise)? No. The DA is prettier, and to me guitars are art (as well as tools), so there is value to me in that. The DA has greater demand, so there is a strong probability that my wife and children will enjoy a greater return on the DA when I am gone (I plan on keeping the DA until I am 6 feet under, thank you very much) then on the Epi.

Like it or not, guitars have become an investment commodity. If you want a great playing and sounding jazz guitar at the lowest price, IMO you will do better with a Japanese made Ibanez than a Gibson. But I also think that you and your family will come out ahead financially with the Gibby over time.

I think Gibson's are worth it when you take into account resale value, tone and mojo. It's just that I'm still a high school student, so before I can by and L5 or what not, I've got a long way to go in life. It sort of reminds me of investing in gold; makes sense down the line; I can't do it now though.

[Stringswinger]

@ Klatu and Bluedawg,

I got my Epi about 10 years ago. It was an estate sale that I happened into just by chance. I saw an old Lifton case and asked the guy in charge what it was. He said it was an old guitar from the 50's. I asked about the price. He said $1,000. I started to think "Could this be an old L-5?" and asked him to open the case. I saw the Epi, played it and was quite prepared to give him the grand (I think that they were bringing about 1500 on Ebay and archtop.com was selling them for 2000 at the time). I offered 800 hoping that maybe he would split it at 900. He accepted my 800 offer.

It never hurts to ask.