Looking for an acoustic archtop

[jtpal25]

I have a 1969 ES-175, and now I would like an acoustic without any electronics for around $1000. Looking used/vintage because I'd like something made in USA. I'm having trouble because when I search the forums, the consensus is that old L-50 and L-48s should be able to be had for $1000 or less, but everything I'm seeing is $1400-$2000. Are these good prices or should I just be patient?
Or, should I be looking at different models?

[Gippo]

If you should change your mind and go for new, I just bought godin 5th avenue. It sounds great.

[mr. beaumont]

Honestly...get out and play an L50...ypu might find the only thing you like about them is the name on the headstock.

U.S. made, vintage, under 1k don't give you much to work with.

[Gippo]

Honestly I'm writing from Italy and in this moment I can't find no L50 under 2000 euros that means some more dollars. I thought we were talking about another range of price.

[Gippo]

I bought godin to have my first experience with an acoustic archtop. I like to appreciate upgrades starting from entry level.

[mr. beaumont]

The Godins aren't particularly rich soundimg acoustically, but the craftsmanship is great, resulting in a well-made, stable, great playing guitar. I think you made a fine choice for your first jazzbox.

[Gippo]

I think tre same after trying.. I'm thinking about a floating pickup, but I don't want to go off topic

[mr. beaumont]

Start a new thread...lots of options!

As for this thread...you might find an old recording king or vega around 1k. But this is a tough bracket to buy blind in.

Also, certainly Harmonys and Kays...but those are so hit ir miss.

[jtpal25]

Which Model Godin 5th Ave are you guys talking about? Or are they all nice? I see this one on Guitar Center's website.

http://www.guitarcenter.com/Godin-5th-Avenue-Archtop-Acoustic-Guitar-107223471-i1395544.gc?country=us&currency=usd&isfullsite=1&s ource=4WWRWXGP&gclid=CjwKEAjwmfKpBRC8tb3Mh5rs23ASJ ACWy1QP2krMxJED-f-0f5vrZxw3f08cP0F93x9wsifo3aST7hoCVA_w_wcB&kwid=pro ductads-plaid^64346380292-sku^518494.673@ADL4GC-adType^PLA-device^c-adid^44639487282

[Gippo]

The acoustic one

[Gippo]

Just created a thread about floating pick-up searching

[fws6]

The L50 has a pressed top , and the neck is set straight in line with the body (in stead of under a slight angle as would be the case with higher end archtops). Hence most L50s do not sound particularly well, when played acoustically. I am sure there are excellent players out there that can make anything sound first rate. But the L50 is not better than similar budget guitars you can find in stores today, and the price is very inflated because it sais Gibson on the headstock. Plus it is very difficult to install a floating pickup because there is not much clearance.

If you are looking at the 2000 level anyways IMHO better try a USA-made Epiphone. Like this Broadway for example, it is 1800 and had a DArmond (300 value) installed already. It will be much better sounding than any L50. The Broadway is equivalent with the L12 in the Gibson lineup (roughly speaking, the Gibson super 400 = the Epi emperor ; L5 = deluxe ; L12 = broadway ; L7 = Triumph)

https://reverb.com/item/540414-epiph...47-vintage-sun

[campusfive]

L50's aren't all pressed tops, the 30's ones had solid tops, and the neck angle and fret board extension changed as well.
With L50's and 48's the specs changed significantly over the years. I was looking for pre-war L50's with a fretboard that was flat to the top for a long time (so I could add a CC pickup to it), and you'd be hard pressed to do better than $1500 for one.

If $1000 is your absolute hard and fast limit, your best best in an acoustic archtop is a Loar non-cutaway, or a used Eastman non-cutaway. I've never heard a Godin 5th Avenue with an acoustic voice to rival a Loar - no contest. And frankly unless you can play the L50 in person, it easily my night be as good as Loar once it's properly set up.

For all acoustic archtops, set up is key to providing the most acoustic projection. There needs to be appropriate action and string tension to drive the top, but there comes a point where too much just sort of overdrives the top and you loose sustain. Find that sweet spot, and they can really sing.

[jtpal25]

Well, I've widened my search and I'm not opposed to buying new or newer/used. I plan to try out a bunch, but with my limited knowledge of archtops (been a Les Paul and Strat player for the last 25 years) I'd like to get all the info I can before playing them.

Any information or opinions on the following....?

Gretsch G100 made in Korea
Gretsch G100 vintage (40's)
Gretsch G400 made in Japan
Vintage Epiphone Zenith (40's)
Vintage Gretsch New Yorker


Thanks for all your help thus far, this is proving to be a very helpful place.

[Phil in London]

Not exactly American, but if you are looking for vintage, you might be interested in a Hofner 1960s President. They are very nice guitars with a great vibe.

[campusfive]

Any information or opinions on the following....?

Gretsch G100 made in Korea - laughable acoustic tone compared to a Loar - "pressed" top, not carved
Gretsch G100 vintage (40's) - depends on the specific example, but could be good, could be mediocre, probably not awesone
Gretsch G400 made in Japan - not as terrible as the Korean ones, but still mediocre - it's not a carved top guitar either
Vintage Epiphone Zenith (40's) - Zeniths are a bit small, but they can be great. Make sure it has an adjustable truss rod, otherwise neck adjustments are much more difficult.
Vintage Gretsch New Yorker - depends on the guitar, but I've not hear that many great sounding vintage gretsch archtops - some of them are quite cool looking, though.

Anything with a "laminate" top is not really going to have a proper acoustic voice. Budget archtops are sometimes sold as having a "solid" top, but instead being "carved" with an arched shape from a thicker block of wood (like a real acoustic archtop), they are "pressed" into shape. "Pressed" top guitar don't hold a candle to a real carved top.

If actually care about the guitar having a real acoustic voice, hold out for a carved top. At the price point you originally suggested a Loar 600 is probably the best bet, unless you can find a used Eastman non-cutaway. If you can wiggle a bit on price, you could look at something like an Epiphone Blackstone, or Olympic or some of the cheaper 30's-50's Epis (again watch out because they didn't have adjustable truss rods until '37 or '38 or something), or perhaps an L50 or L48. You have to watch the year and specifications for both L50's and 48's because they changed so much over the years. Eventually they went to laminates, not solid wood, so watch out. A pre-war L50 can be a thing of beauty, and there are some floating around for ~$2000.

[DanielleOM]

Johnathan

I have come across a few Eastman non cutaway guitars and I must admit I was really impressed by the ones that I heard. I was even amazed by the lower cost one with the mahogany body. Kind of kicking myself for not picking one up cheap when I had the opportunity at one of their road shows.

I have an AR805CE here myself, but I often wondered if there was something special about the ones with out the cutaway. Do you think it's the lack of the cutaway itself that makes the difference? I sometimes wonder if Eastman does something different with the carving / voicing, when they know the instrument is going to be shipped without a pickup.

I toyed with bronze strings on my AR805CE, and just using it acoustically. I can't recall what strings I put on it. I found I liked the sound I got for rhythm. However if I moved to chord melody, there was something that I did not like. I think there was this uncomfortable transition from the wound to plain strings in tone. What are using for strings these days on acoustic archtops?

I still want to see a Loar archtop sometime. I have not heard one. However I was very impressed by the sound of small body Loar flattop I heard at an acoustic song circle from a guy playing old time acoustic blues.


Danielle

[campusfive]

Cutaways are never as loud as their non-cutaway analogs. They just aren't.
Plenty of the Eastman non-cuts come with the pickup attached, so Eastman isn't necessarily voicing them to be "acoustic" per se. But I think there must be something about the non-cutaway Eastmans, because they do tend to be something special. That said, my first Eastman, whose neck went south, was a 17" Cutaway and it was pretty loud too - just not as loud. That said Eastmans are all X-braced, and Loars are parallel braced.

I'm a big fan of Martin SP in 80/20. The plain strings are "bronzed" to have a matching tone to the wound. I think it might be complete hogwash, but I think they sound the best of anything I've tried. They really make the guitar sing without being shrill. You can also try Martin "Retro" which are Monel. That was the alloy that was used in the late 20's and into the 40's before the introduction of bronze strings in the mid 30's.

The Loars might lack some depth and sophistication as compared to a vintage carved guitar, but once they're played in a bunch, its impressive how good they get. Since a Loar is parallel braced it will project and bark more than a similar X-braced guitar. Eastmans are X braced, so they don't tend to have as much bark, and sound fuller. Fullness is great alone, but I find that too much fullness will get lost in an ensemble, and muddy things up, where as a honky midrange tends to cut through clearly. Thankfully my Eastman 805 non-cut has 10 solid years of play wear, and has plenty of honk, and the X-braced fullness doesn't overwhelm. It probably helps that it's a 16", and that helps it retain it's bite.

[campusfive]

I should note, the very earliest production runs had some wood that wasn't aged quite long enough, but 12 years out, if the neck on a guitar hasn't gone south by now, it should be safe.

Also, as far as I can tell, the only to two guitars with actual carved tops that are factory made (as opposed to luthier built), and available off the rack widely, are Eastman and Loar.

There are plenty of great laminated archtop that sound good with a magnetic pickup, and maybe there's something quaint about the pressed would sound of something like an old harmony or kay, but for actual acoustic archtop playing, you really can't get away without a solid, carved top. The pressed wood tops of stuff like the new Guild A-150, or the new Gretsch New Yorkers, or even the current production G400, they just can't hold a candle.

[jtpal25]

So, if I can get a 1940's Epiphone Broadway in great condition for $1800, I'd be in good shape, yes? I guess I'd be willing to spend some more money in order to be totally happy with my purchase.

[Klatu]

A 1940s Epiphone Broadway would be a steal if you could get it. At that price, I would double check with the seller to make sure that there aren't significant structural issues with the instrument.

[nopedals]

campusfive is absolutely right about new loars and used eastmans as being all there is under $1000. If that was my budget, it would be the loar, no question.

I also agree re the noncut.

I would kick the budget up to 2K, be patient, and grab a noncut L7/L4 or triumph/broadway. Prewar if you can find one. It is amazing what you can do if you are patient enough to wait for a motivated seller.

IMHO zenith or olympic=L50. L48? forgetaboutit. If you are dead set on an L50, do yourself a favor and play a prewar L4 just to see what you will be missing.

Take a blacklight to it and look for cracks; even if you are OK with cracks, you need to know about them before discussing price.

My acoustic is a 1957 Gretsch fleetwood that I got on ebay for $1100 years ago (eldorado=super 400 fleetwood=L5 constellation=L7). But those are impossible to find, and decent gretsches (including mine) almost always need neck resets. The BOTL gretsches like the new yorker are firewood.

[fws6]

So, if I can get a 1940's Epiphone Broadway in great condition for $1800, I'd be in good shape, yes? I guess I'd be willing to spend some more money in order to be totally happy with my purchase.

seller had that guitar for sale , "for a limited time only" at $ 1800. Right now he s back to $ 2200. Never understand these tactics. If it was 1800 last week then why not now. You didnt have a buyer last week - so adding 400 to the price is going to help you sell you more quickly this week ?

Anyways I have owned six broadways in the last decade, still have two which are my main players, and all were exceptional instruments.

You specifically say you look for high quality + vintage + USA made + still reasonably priced, fully acoustic guitar ... then IMHO only Epiphone will meet those criteria. The NY-made (pre 1953) Epi's are undervaluated because today they are Gibsons import brand. Some players just have to have a Gibson. But if you are looking at historical facts in the 1930s and 1940s Epiphone and Gibson where each others main competition and made guitars of very similar quality

that guitar, judging from the pics, seems to have some dings, one slight area of bad binding (wouldnt do anything just cosmetic) , and a non original bridge. Although the seller remarks it sounds very well, if you want to make sure, why dont you skype with the seller and have him play you some. And ask him all the details in person, does the trussrod work, how are the frets,mhow is the action. People will tell you much more in person than they will put in an ad.

The similar aged Gibson L12 equivalent would set you back 4-5k , seen the Epiphone is half Id say it is a steal. Heck - If you buy it and dont like it, I ll personally take it off your hands

[jtpal25]

You guys are awesome and very helpful. I bought that '47 Broadway with the DeArmond for $1800. Seller told me there was no issues with the guitar beside that little piece of binding. He also is going to give me a 3 day trial period once it arrives. So, I'm pretty happy--and very excited; can't wait until it arrives!

While I was searching Epiphones today, I came across a very nice looking Blackstone on ebay. Anyone have any info on a 1945 Blackstone? Just curious and want to up my archtop knowledge. How does a 40's Blackstone compare to a 40's Broadway?

Here is the listing in case you'd like to take a look.
Epiphone Blackstone Archtop 1945 Guitar Includes DeArmond Pickup | eBay

[Klatu]

Congratulations, you scored a ridiculous price on an apex guitar. I've played vintage Gibson L5s, original D'Angelicos, and nice luthier built instruments and have yet to play one that sound better than my old Epiphones. That's not to say that my Epiphones are better than the other guitars mentioned, it's just that they are on equal tonal ground IMO.

As for the Blackstone, I've never played one but I can tell you that it is a smaller 16" guitar with a carved spruce top and laminate back and sides. Surely it's a fine guitar, but I don't think it was intended to be in the same professional range as the Triumph, Broadway, Deluxe, or Emperor.