Looking for an acoustic archtop

[John Leduc]

Emily Remler had a Gibson 330tdc and swung hard with it (she did have other guitars, but I understand this was her baby). I saw that she was playing it on her "Tenor Madness" Youtube. Very cool. My favorite of my collection is exactly the same, even down to the swapped out p-90 pickups for Humbuckers, which I did in 1972. To me, they're very sensitive, which I like, and I use very light strings so it must be played delicately. I bought my Gib es-330-tdc used, in 1968. The guy who bought it new in '63 immediately joined the navy and left the 330 standing in his parents closet for 5 years then sold it to me new. The 335 has a center block which to my thinkn kinda makes it for all practical purposes a solid body guitar, no? The 330 is truly a hollow body, which I feel lets it sound more like a guitar/less electronic and also makes it very light. I have never had feedback problems I couldn't control, and in 1970 I went nuts and had Marshall stack. An early model Fender Twin reverb was it's perfect mate but now I have a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe (wild name, eh?). I see Emily's '62 Gibson has a tremolo with no tremolo arm on it. Mine just has the basic trapeze setup. I sent this letter before but I didn't get much reaction so I'll try again. Anybody use completely hollow thinline guitars? I'm into Django Reinhardt, Charlie Parker, Charlie Christian, bebop in all it's shapes and forms, also Eric Clapton (up thru Cream), and an obscure guy- Danny Kirwan.
John LeDuc

[nopedals]

I find this site to be extremely reliable:

Antique Vintage Guitars collector info - collecting old VINTAGE GUITARS

eg, Vintage Guitars Info - Epiphone model history collecting vintage guitars

His "collectability" ratings are pretty tough, but for an acoustic guitar, you probably want something better than a "D"

The Blackstone is a notch below the Broadway. It is more of a student model, and not likely to sound really great acoustically.

[fws6]

Congrats enjoy the Broadway and leave the Blackstone be

[jtpal25]

I guess I don't really care about the collectability rating, I'm not a collector, I just want a great sounding archtop that's well built.

[nopedals]

I was just using his collectability rating to suggest that the Blackstone was a notch below the Broadway in tone.

But of course you care about collectability. Or you will when you sell it.

[Klatu]

Collectability is a curios issue. The Epiphone Olympic was a lowly student guitar until David Rawlings picked it up and turned it into a folky-bluegrasser's wet dream.

[jtpal25]

I received the '47 Broadway ($1800 purchase). I sounds awesome, huge tone. It arrived and the action was super low (feels like 12 gauge strings), very easy to play. There is a little room to bring the saddle down, but I've actually brought it up a little because the action was really low and I like it a little higher. Everything is great, but I'm a little concerned about the heel.

There is some separation there. The guitar stays in tune and has low action, with room to go lower and the neck is straight with maybe the tiniest bit of relief. Also, there is a little crack on the body where it meets the heel, but I can't tell if it's a finish crack or crack in the wood (it was hard to photograph). I can't see anything from inside the guitar because there is a block of wood inside where the body meets the heel that would be covering it up anyway.

Should I return this because a separating heel, in general, is a pain and costly? Is it possible that the neck is stable and will stay the way it is? I've never owned a guitar this old before, so I'm not sure what to expect. Here are a couple of pics.

[spiral]

Should I return this because a separating heel, in general, is a pain and costly? Is it possible that the neck is stable and will stay the way it is? I've never owned a guitar this old before, so I'm not sure what to expect.

Maybe. Yes. Possibly. The neck separating is common on archtops (even more common on cheaper archtops like Harmonys and Kays) and will run you around $375-450 in Chicago for a neck reset. The neck has to be removed, refitted, shimmed and glued, and the neck will have some frets worked on. It's hard to say if it will keep moving but I personally wouldn't keep it especially after spending $1800, if that is the case.

It is hard to tell in the pictures if it is separating. Can you get a picture along the actual joint? It could be the binding has just shrunk. Based on the the body binding separating, it looks like it has. In the second picture the heel looks solid all along the body. Can you slip a piece of paper along the edge at the separation? If so how far?

Here are some good pictures and ways to see if it is separating:
Problems To Watch For

[jtpal25]

I'll get some better pictures up soon.

[nopedals]

A neck reset (typically with a refret) costs $$$, but if you have the right person do it, you have the equivalent of $$$$ or $$$$$ boutique archtop playability, and you will never have to do it again. Unlike some others here, I don't see $1800 as remarkably below street for this guitar, but if it is a guitar you are going to keep, you won't think about money spent on making it perfect after a few years.

For me, stuff that you can't make go away (repaired cracks or a refin) are more of an issue.

[fws6]

So... It sounds great & it plays great
Theres plenty room to set the action up or down

Then why would it need a neck reset ?

Binding and heel cap have minute signs of shrinkage but I wish I would look as good at 68 years of age

[jtpal25]

Here are a couple pics from the side. Along the heel, the bass side only has a bit of separation toward the heel cap. Along the treble side, there is a tiny crack up most of the heel. You can see a tiny bit of daylight through the heel.

I also tried to take a better picture of that crack. I can't tell if it's a finish crack or a wood crack.

I'm just wondering if it's possible for something like this to be stable, or is it inevitable that it will worsen?

[campusfive]

First off, if it sounds good, that's job #1. If it's playable, that's job #2. As long the guitar is stable, and whatever cracks or issues are stable, then just play it!

I've been going thought the same back-and-forth of joy and self-doubt with the L-12 I just bought. It sounded really great right away. And I then I swapped the strings from 12's to 13's. And then I took it to be set up. And I kept going back and forth between being super happy and being critical. I took it to another guy to look at, and he immediately pointed out the slight sag in the top, and the fact "the frets are gone." But, in the same breath he said the top has probably been like that for 40 years. He said "just play the damn thing, and see how you feel." Oh, and he suggested swapping the 13+17 for a 14+18, which is something I've definitely done from time-to-time. So, I did that.

But at home, I kept vacillating between really digging the guitar and being critical, but I hadn't played with anybody. Well, I played it on a duo/trio gig last night with a singer and sax player, just using my AT lav mic on a gooseneck into a mic pre into a Mackie powered speaker - no eq, even. The guitar was so amazing and inspiring, I couldn't believe it. I didn't want to leave the gig because I just wanted to keep playing.

Do the frets eventually need to be replaced, yeah, probably. But right now? No.

You really have to give it time, and play it in a variety of contexts. I keep being taught the lesson that context is key, and no matter how something sounds at home, or in isolation, that is not how it necessarily fits into another ensemble or environment.

As far as the neck, ask a professional. If it's stable and doesn't affect the tone (that you can tell), leave it be for a while.

[campusfive]

And in case it wasn't clear, the the doubt was mostly in my head, and the fact that NO guitar is perfect. Especially not a vintage one.

[Klatu]

I'm not seeing which crack it is you're worried about, but I seem to see a space between the end of the heel and the body as if the heel isn't properly attached to the body. If this is the case, I'm going through something similar with one of my old guitars.

I played one of my old guitar for years, noticing that there was a space at the end of the heel that wasn't properly glued down, but I thought it wasn't a big deal until I took all the pressure off the neck and noticed that the neck wasn't fully glued down. Once I realized that it was the string pressure that was keeping the neck in place, I took it to a local repairman who squirt some glue into the space and clamped it down.

The repair didn't work. Apparently, he tried to glue it down at a more "proper" angle, and the neck didn't set as solidly as I would need. After a day or two, I noticed that the guitar would lose tuning and that the glue was slowly coming undone. I took it back to him for a second round of gluing, and the same thing happened after a few days. I am now at round 3 of glue, and I am afraid that the same thing may be happening. The solution might be more drastic than I anticipated, and I don't currently have the funds to undertake such a project.

If I can't set the guitar up properly without a serious investment, it might just have to go into storage until a major surgery can be scheduled.

Bottom line is that I would suggest treating a vintage piece like a used car: take it to a mechanic to get a professional opinion as to its health before pulling the trigger.

[jtpal25]

I ended up keeping the Broadway. I took it to a really good luthier who checked it out and said that he thought it was stable. He said it could one of two possibilities...
1. The neck was reset a while back, in which case he said they did an excellent job.
2. That it's been that way for a long time and when the binding shrunk it exposed that gap.

Either way, he said that it's not loose in any way and that it's in a perfect position.

So I'm happy, and it sounds and plays awesome...I just wish that I did as well.

[kkfan]

Cutaways are never as loud as their non-cutaway analogs. They just aren't.

On an interesting and related note, in his book, "Making An Archtop Guitar," Bob Benedetto states:

"When the cutaway was first introduced to the guitar, its obvious purpose was to allow the player easy access to the high register. Little or no regard was given to its detrimental acoustical design. The non-cutaway body with its symmetrical shape allows the top and back plates to vibrate more freely and evenly - a distinct acoustical advantage."

[campusfive]

I'm very happy it worked out for you after all. I think I was sort of looking at that guitar too at some point. Epi's are awesome and loud. Good call.