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So in order to enjoy a good cable you have to read studies first? Or what does it mean? When you havent heard a difference then you neednt to remain sceptic, you can just ignore it.
Originally Posted by KIRKP
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02-28-2015 04:05 PM
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Belden / Steve Lampen conducted a blind listening test w/ an audiophile magazine (name not mentioned) and presented it at AES:Please link to the peer reviewed study then. [about cable directionality]
The Truth About Audio and Other Cables
This is different than a directional "shield lifted" cable which deals with where, the noise picked up on the shield, is grounded. Electrons flow equally in both directions on the cable.
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When you spend a lot of money on a product, you tend to see that product as superior compared to the products you rejected. Blind testings have not supported the claims of the high-buck cable industry. For that matter, people with golden ears like studio engineers can't reliably tell MP3s from CDs in blind tests, but millions of internet experts will tell you they can.
Guitar cables have measurable differences and audible differences as well, depending on capacitance. Whether those differences are significant depends on a lot of factors (including your age- if you're over 50 you've probably already lost a good bit of the range of hearing that is affected by cable capacitance. If you're a musician who hasn't been wearing hearing protection it's probably even worse. If you're using an amp with tubes and a guitar speaker, it may not even reproduce the frequencies that are better passed with lo-cap cables- you need a tweeter and an FRFR speaker.). There are a lot of claimed high tech bamboozelements that make no difference at all except to your wallet.
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Sorry, I just get annoyed when I detect marketing hype. I have no problem with a manufacturer claiming their cable has lower capacitace, is more rugged, more flexible, better sheilded, more easily repairable, more flexible, or better looking. But if they make claims that engineering experts say are unfounded, the burden of proof is on the manufacturer, certainly not the consumer. So I remain a skeptic until I see scientific data that persuades me otherwise. Originally Posted by lapideusvir
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I understand that. But you just have to do one thing: try it and listen. If you like it, keep it if you dont like it, dont keep it. It´s that simple. Originally Posted by KIRKP
Is it possible that my ears play tricks with me? All I can say is that, when I compare my LaGrange with the Vovox, I hear a significant difference!
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I was skeptical whether cables really could influence the sound, but after having read some statements here, I once bought an expensive Monster Cable Jazz. I agree that expectations and buying expensive gear can make people think they have achieved a higher level of sound. But unfortunately this cable was very disappointing for me. It would have been fine, if it was just better shielded with less electrical noise and then neutral compared to my other cables, but it stole a lot of the colours which I like, similar to rolling the toneknob back too much.
My next cable experiment was with Vovox Sonorous and it turned out very different and with crisp sound. I prefer if the cheaper cables – the one most shops call here very good cables – were as good as the Vovox, cause I prefer to spend money on guitars and amps, but difference btw Monster and Vovox is to me ears is like differences with picks.
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My experience with Monster Cables, too. IMO they are expensive junk.
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Originally Posted by lapideusvir
On the other hand, this topic was put to discussion in a public thread. Given that, it seems entirely reasonable that some people respond that for them the difference is minimal (or even not audible) and they therefore think that such cables are not worth the money. Quite frankly, to me, as a third party, the thread becomes much more informative if there are different opinions posted, rather than people just say 'aha, great!' to Improv's opening post.
Just my 5c, of course.
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I dont get the point you are referring to... IMO it is not reasonable, even unintelligible (to me), when someone claims he is sceptic about a cable although he tried it. What is it supposed to mean? Originally Posted by Phil in London
Pluck the cable in, play, listen, judge. When you dont like it, you have all reasonable right to say it is not worth the money. It is not my intention to persuade anyone.
Perhaps I didnt get the point? (I´m not native english so I might got something wrong, if so, sorry).Last edited by lapideusvir; 03-01-2015 at 12:16 PM.
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There is a legitimate electrical engineering reason for instrument cables to sound different: capacitance. The longer the cable, the more important capacitance becomes (note that this effect is not prominent in low-impedence environments such as microphones and also once your signal has been plugged into a pedal that has a buffer, which converts the high impedance signal to a low impedence signal). Originally Posted by lapideusvir
however, depending on the sound you want, it may not be important. If you want a darkish Jim Hall or Pat Metheny tone then a low capacitance cable isn't going to mean much to you. If you want a Lenny Breau or Martin Taylor type tone, then it will mean more.
And speaker cables? Nope. The cable industry is selling snake oil there.
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Blue Jeans Cable does a good job of explaining the technical factors involved in design of unbalanced audio cables without hype.
http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/...sign-notes.htm
I'm not endorsing them, but I like their engineering approach and openness. They don't even offer instrument cables, but the principles are the same.
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Originally Posted by lapideusvir
Well, I am in no position to defend or interpret the fellow poster, but I can't see how what you state adds up. Assume (for the argument's sake) I cannot hear any difference between designer cables and normal cables. Would this entitle me to state, in absoluteness, that 'there is no difference'? Maybe others can hear what I cant hear, but what is actually there? I would be very careful to say 'hey, there is absolutely no difference between the two', knowing that hearing abilities vary quite substantially with respect to genetic heritage, age, hearing loss due to incidents, etc. If one intends to make more general statements which are not just related to one's own experience, it is therefore indeed reasonable to look at scientific reports. Own experience makes sceptical, scientific testing provides assurance. Nothing 'unintelligible' in this at all, at least so it seems to me.
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Certanly not. Originally Posted by Phil in London
But the ones who refer to physics and scientific reports state that, because differences cant be measured (excepts things like capacitance).
e.g. the user "cunamara" who states: "And speaker cables? Nope. The cable industry is selling snake oil there".
see? What cant be measured cant exist.
This leads to nowhere, imo. Always there is one who mentiones the capacitance... and thats it. Originally Posted by Phil in London
In this case I dont agree, scientific testing provides near to nothing. I´m with user "improv" here, only your hearing is the reference and based on this it is very easy: take it or leave it. Originally Posted by Phil in London
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lapideusvir your English is just fine. Regretfully I speak Texan and have trouble with both English and American dialects.
This is turned out to be an interesting thread. My initial intention was simply to plug a cable I thought was better than my others. It is the most I've ever spent on a guitar cable ( that's the Sonorus), but I thought I would give it a try. If I didn't like it I could always return it, but I do like it.
To my understanding there are many factors that have effect on a cables sound. Many have mentioned capacitance. There is also strand versus solid, cryogenic treatment, solder, the type of copper or silver in some cases, the dielectric, skin effect, craftsmanship, twists per inch, and on and on.
I don't know and I leave that up to the designers and marketers.
Some have suggested that you wouldn't notice that in a club environment, and that may be true. However, I plugged it in my practice room, and the difference was significant to the positive side for me.
I understand that many feel a more expensive cable may not be worth the money. That's definitely your right and your decision. Of course you spend thousands on a guitars and amps, and for me to justify $150 on a cable is easy. I want to try and get the best sound out of my set up. And overall, that's a pretty small investment compared to all the money spent elsewhere on our gear.
I sure don't expect anyone else to agree with what I like as we have our differences. That's what makes the world go 'round.
My opinion on scientific measurements on cables, is that the science is not there yet.
As some have said, they don't understand the confusion, just plug it in and see if you like what you hear. That's what I started and ended with.
improv
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If you lived near me I would be willing to change out my speaker cables for you. We could go from zip wire through several other speaker cables up to the Kimber KS-3033 I'm currently using. All levels would be matched. If you did not hear improvement at each step I would be completely surprised. Originally Posted by Cunamara
Or perhaps you could try a local high end stereo store and see if you hear a difference.
This has no bearing on whether you think the cables are worth the price. It has to do with the hearing. The nuance, the low level detail, the sound staging, the timbre of the instruments, etc.
Trust your ears.
improv
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I don't trust my ears- or eyes for that matter. All our sensory organs have limitations and are vulnerable to illusions: Originally Posted by improv
(from Wikipedia)
"When presented with a harmonic series of frequencies in the relationship 2f, 3f, 4f, 5f, etc. (where f is a specific frequency), humans tend to perceive that the pitch is f."
"...The illusion occurs when the auditory component of one sound is paired with the visual component of another sound, leading to the perception of a third sound.[1] The visual information a person gets from seeing a person speak changes the way they hear the sound."
We are all prone to marketing manipulations and cognitive dissonance, some of us are more so than others :-)
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Originally Posted by improv
It has to do with whether you buy the KoolAid.
The infamous Monster 1000 vs. Belden vs. coathangers:
Speakers; When is good enough, enough | Page 2 | Audioholics Home Theater Forums
A summary of four comparison tests of high-buck speaker cables versus zip wire:
ABX Double Blind Tests: Interconnects and Wires
And a nice compendium of cable manufacturer bushwah:
http://www.andreconsulting.com/Audio...nake%20Oil.pdf
The reasons that speaker cables don't sound different are found in basic electronics; unfortunately most people who buy these things don't know much about how electricity and electronics work- the make their decisions based on sales pitches and magazine reviews (which are notoriously influenced by advertising dollars). And the reason that different high impedance instrument cables may sound different is also found in basic electronics.
BTW, all your speaker cable are belong to us (and are found to be inadequate):
$7,800 for a pair of Everest cables.
Product Detail
$33,000 for Transparent Opus MM cables:
Opus MM2 Speaker Cable Speaker cable from Transparent Cable
Frankly, just getting out the ruler would save your more competitive audiophiles a lot of money. BTW, expensive HDMI cables perform no better than cheap ones, either. :-D
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There are some pretty strong statements in your post, such as that you essentially propose that the only 'scientific method' of testing the subject matter is based on measuring capacitance. But then how about blinded tests? Such tests, if proper methodology is used, can be scientific as well. Or maybe it is possible to measure the output of a speaker, sequentially playing the same sound source under use of different cables, by ways of some kind of 'spectrogram'? Well, what do I know... Originally Posted by lapideusvir
In any case, there seems no valid justification to reduce the allowed communication in this forum to 'you hear it - great, buy it; you dont hear it - move on'. In fact there are quite a few gadgets and gear for which I find not much use in my personal practice, but for which I do enjoy (to a certain extent) to exchange views on the JGF. That's, after all, what this website is made for.
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I'll shut up soon. But I've got to point out that the science is there. We're talking about audio frequency electromagnetics here, not gravity waves. The reason some boutique cable manufacturers won't provide repeatable frequency response measurements isn't because it would be difficult to measure. If I were a skeptical person I'd say it's because they would be embarrassed to show the results. Originally Posted by improv
But I've given up on skepticism. I've gotta run now to see my astrologer! (wink & grin)
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Kinda OT, but wife and I have been binge watching the ancient aliens series. I wonder what THEY would have to say about boutique cables Originally Posted by KIRKP
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This site has a nice cable comparison without any hype that I can see:
Audio Cables Compared and Recommended
A high quality instrument cable is equivalent to a capacitor soldered across the output jack of the guitar. When a person says they prefer the sound of their guitar with a particular cable, that tells me they like the capacitance that cable provides.
Seems to me instead of trying a bunch of boutique cables (and each at several lengths, since capacitance is proportional to length) one could instead buy one high quality low capacitance cable (as short as you can live with), then try shunting it with a few different capacitors. If you settle on a particular capacitor value, install that cap across the output jack in the guitar. If you want different capacitor values for different situations, install a switch with multiple capacitor values (and perhaps one setting with no capacitor). I'm considering trying this approach.
Alternatively, if you find a total capacitance value you prefer (which is the sum of the reference cable's capacitance plus the capacitance soldered across it) shop for a high quality cable that provides this capacitance value.
The Zerocap variable Capacitance Device seems to take the latter approach.
http://www.aqdi.com/zvc.htm
https://www.google.com/patents/US8246384
Yet another approach is to put all the EQ and a buffer in the guitar. Once the signal has been buffered, cable capacitance becomes much less of a concern. Most electric/acoustic guitars already use that approach. Tuck Andress does as well. The active stuff lives under his bridge pickup cover.Last edited by KirkP; 03-02-2015 at 12:13 PM.
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I love the 33k$ cable, as I love bizarre things in general...
Opus MM2 Speaker Cable Speaker cable from Transparent Cable
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Interesting stuff.
I concede that marketing plays a factor in initial purchase. I think perhaps we narrow our criteria based on marketing. Or perhaps psychoacoustics plays a part in listening.
To quote medblues ""When presented with a harmonic series of frequencies in the relationship 2f, 3f, 4f, 5f, etc. (where f is a specific frequency), humans tend to perceive that the pitch is f."
I agree. But isn't it the harmonic frequencies that allows us to distinguish the timbre of one instrument to another? If we were to reduce sound production (or reproduction) to only the fundamental frequency wouldn't we hear instruments as sounding the same.
improv
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That is part of it (how big I don't know) but attack and sustain/decay (envelope characteristics) are probably more important than harmonic production. In addition, this allows me to mention that in blind listening tests, people misidentify timbre (instruments) especially if a "context" is not provided. Similarly, if served in the same "temperature" professional tasters cannot distinguish white wine from red wine. Originally Posted by improv
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Most people will review a wine more highly if they are told it was expensive. The suggestion that it was expensive apparently stimulates a part of the brain that experiences pleasure. Likewise, buying expensive cables might make a person think they sound better. Originally Posted by medblues
http://phys.org/news119531708.htmlLast edited by KirkP; 03-02-2015 at 05:06 PM.
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