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I have a feeling that this experience will shake Reverb up enough to do something positive about it. The last thing they'd want is to have is thread shared and repeated on the Gear Page and all the other guitar-specific forums.
They've been great and we dearly love them for what they do. eBay sucks. The forums' buy and sell facilities are good, but each doesn't necessarily attract all eyes. Reverb has the potential. Reverb, are you listening? It'd be bad if you got voted off the island.
bob
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03-03-2015 08:35 AM
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Ban them all.. ban them all to HELLLLL !
Originally Posted by barrymclark
But not you Barry, you cool
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Originally Posted by jzucker
LOLLLLL
The patients are in charge of the asylum then.
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I'll take that vote of confidence! Originally Posted by SamBooka
Ban them all.. ban them all to HELLLLL !
But not you Barry, you cool
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There is a difference between making things right and making things perfect. Reverb made things right in this instance for Jack Zucker. They deserve credit for that. They have also earned the trust of several long-time Reverb users who posted in this thread, where positive feedback dominates. IMO they deserve a lot of credit for that.
But Reverb they did not make things perfect. I encourage you to read Reverb's buyer and seller protection policies. They are brief, and you can find them here. After listening to what's been said in this thread and reading through the policies, my take (or my best guess if you prefer) is that:
- Reverb makes an earnest attempt to be fair.
- They don't always get it right.
- They are trying to strike a balance between perfect fairness and containing costs.
- Reverb's protection policies are ambiguous and don't offer much real protection to buyers or sellers.
I think Reverb should have an objective criterion for allowing the return of items that are not as described by the seller. Nothing in accordance with the seller's shop policies and expectations (Item #2 of the buyer policy) should prevent the buyer from getting a prompt refund if an item is not as described. I also think it is excessive to require the user to wait 14 days beyond the expected arrival date before even filing a complaint, which is the current policy.
In the end, my faith in Reverb's protection is shaken, but not my faith in Reverb. As for protection, it seems to me that Reverb adds almost nothing to buyer protection, and I don't see any real protection beyond choosing the seller carefully. Despite the preponderance of good feedback, no one here besides Jack has talked explicitly about an arbitration on Reverb. spiral likes Reverb's customer service, but he has had nothing but good trades. I realize that ruger9 may have had successful arbitrations (please chime in ruger9), but nothing about dispute arbitration is explicit in his statement that the customer service he received in this thread is like Jack's. And speaking of Jack, most of us know that he has a hard-earned but unusually great amount of influence. It is not a given IMO that the rest of us would receive the same treatment - don't know - just sayin'.
On the other hand, Reverb's fees are better than ebay, and most Reverb trades apparently go well. Personally, I try to be careful about the seller on ebay too, so why not be careful on a site with lower fees?
One last thing: Thanks to all who criticized the bad manners in this thread. It may not be equally fair to all the participants, but fair or not, it is just about impossible to be right in a public pissing contest.
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Widely agreed. I guess the point is: What does it mean to "agree to do more homework prior to using the service again", when what we are talking about here is a truss rod that does not work. In this context, such 'requirement' is just plain silly. And staff usually does not create an attitude like this out of thin air.
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Ebay (until recently) and Reverb have no protection for the seller. They can only mediate and use pressure by say banning said seller (who can just open another account for sure).
The only people that can offer you protection is paypal. The most important think to do is make sure your covered with them, even if that means phoning them about a certain case.
Often People seem to not understand this.
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Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
I have not had any arbitrations through Reverb.com. Just alot of buying/selling, AND when they first started I joined immediately and was emailed a couple times by them thanking me for my business, asking for my opinions on things they could do to improve and make themselves more inviting, etc. No one from ebay has ever emailed me lol.
I much prefer reverb to ebay (mostly due to the lower fees), but I HAVE had issues/arbitrations with ebay, and they are no easier than Jack's description in this thread. I used ebay because I had to. I don't anymore, except as a last resort (because of their greater customer base), BECAUSE of Reverb.com
I'll be doing more business on reverb... but I will, as I said, apparently have to keep in mind if I start returning items that my account could be suspended for no GOOD reason. (I have returned 1 item I have purchased on Reverb.com)
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Does Reverb even "arbitrate" is a question I have. I know someone personally who bought a guitar there that was not described, nor presented, as is. The guitar required a neck reset to allow the user to lower the action below a Freddie Green height standard. There were 5 or 6 other cosmetic issues with the guitar that were not described in the sellers description, who btw described the guitar to be in "excellent" condition.
Seller refused a refund. Buyer took the guitar to an independent luthier for inspection. The luthier provided an inspection report and estimate of what it would cost to make ordinary action height adjustments.
The buyer presented the luthiers inspection report to Reverb. Reverb chose not to intercede on the buyers behalf, stating the buyer had not used Reverb's "checkout" procedure, therefore Reverb would take no action. The buyer had to seek a refund by other means.
This is a true and factual statement.
edit -
The buyer did gain a refund. The guitar was returned to the seller. It was some 6 weeks or so later that very seller enrolled here on JGF and presented that identical guitar, possessing the same issues, on the 'for sale' section of JGF. The guitar was presented and described just as it had been on Reverb.
Well, I couldn't in good conscience simply stand by and watch a JGF member buy the guitar...so I posted what I knew about the guitar and how its real condition differed from the sellers description. It wasn't 5 minutes later that the seller deleted his listing on JGF, and he has not appeared on JGF since. The seller sent me an angry PM. But that was a small price to pay to ensure someone else didn't get burned here....6 or so more weeks later that guitar was listed on where else but eBay, but oddly enough with the description amended that a neck adjustment would be required to lower the action.Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 03-03-2015 at 02:14 PM.
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Thanks. It is still quite helpful to me to know about your successful experiences. FWIW, I had one bad transaction on ebay out of many. I did not see the ebay resolution process through to the end because I thought the cure was more trouble than the disease, so to speak. Amazon is the closest I've come to the perfect world for the buyer, but they are not really in the same ball park with ebay and Reverb. So as it is I also will be doing more business on Reverb, while being mindful of returns (and picking sellers carefully.) Originally Posted by ruger9
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I used "arbitration" in post #56 as shorthand for "dispute resolution process", and I hope the context made my intention clear (but maybe not lol Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
). In any case, I did not see anything in Reverb's policies that explicitly mentioned "item not as described" or a similar concept. Perhaps danoverb aka "dan from Reverb" will chime in, as he did in post #14.
EDIT: Thanks for calling the bogus seller out, as described later in your post that I excerpted. It's nice to be in a forum where blatant BS is cut short because we have each others' backs.Last edited by HighSpeedSpoon; 03-03-2015 at 02:22 PM.
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Reverb Protection shields buyers from fake, faulty, or falsely advertised items and sellers from fraudulent purchases. Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
I think that covers it.
I have no direct experience with Reverb.
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Originally Posted by Stuart Elliott
It definitely does state that "Reverb Protection shields buyers from fake, faulty, or falsely advertised items", but it definitely does not "cover" it in the sense of actually protecting buyers. Jack Zucker's experience proves this. Jack was asked to jump through an absurd series of hoops. Reverb's response was in effect, that a terrible mistake occurred, implying that Jack's experience was an exception. Other users have not reported problems with dispute resolution, so perhaps Reverb's reply has some credibility.
The reason I said that Reverb should have an objective criterion for allowing the return of misrepresented items is that objective criteria would have made things easier and less time consuming for everyone involved. The buyer and seller could more quickly and easily determine if an item should be returnable, and so would the Reverb employee(s) arbitrating the matter. Amazon has criteria for determining if things like books and CDs meet the various descriptions such as "like new", "good", "acceptable" etc. You would think that there could be similar descriptions for guitars, amps, cabs, and so on. Such criteria might not cover every conceivable detail (Amazon's don't either), but they could cut out a great deal of the treadwear.
As it is, Reverb's policy still evaluates things in accordance with the seller's shop policies and expectations. That may be good for a website that wants to attract sellers but at a minimum, it makes it very time consuming for buyers doing their pre-sales homework and for Reverb employees in the event of a dispute. Everyone involved needs to check the sellers shop policies, which may be vague, ridiculous, or nonexistent. In a worse case it leaves buyers up the creek. It also discourages potential sellers who don't want to publish their own policies. (I'm one of these potential sellers. I have gear but no shop, so it's ebay or Craig's List for me.)
Reverb is effectively a brokerage, and there is untapped value to be added for buyers and sellers to have Reverb publish a more objective and comprehensive set of arbitration rules that apply to doing business via the brokerage. Amazon has three classes of transactions (Prime, Fullfilled by Amazon Prime, and third party sales). Amazon is very good about telling you what protections you do and do not have for each type of transaction. If Reverb wants to claim that "Reverb Protection shields buyers from fake, faulty, or falsely advertised items" in all Reverb transactions, then Reverb ought to establish and publish its own criteria and have those criteria override the seller's shop policies and expectations in all transactions. Otherwise, Reverb should establish different classes of transactions and state what protections apply to each.
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Perhaps new JGF member danoverb, Dan from Reverb, can be PM'd to return and be specific about what the Reverb policy is or isn't and whose protected and whose not.
I'd PM him, but I'm "suspended."
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 03-03-2015 at 08:52 PM.
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I guess I'm still a bit resentful that I was getting emails from alex saying I had not done my homework. What the !@#$ other homework did I need to do aside from asking him whether there were any problems with the neck, frets, buzzing or trussrod?
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Easy - Just use Mr Keeler's polygraph on the seller, and you don't need to _again_ send back a guitar... Originally Posted by jzucker
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I have been suspended from reverb as well. I had excellent feedback, I was a trusted seller and had some other type of 'honor' bestowed on me (fast responding or something of the like)
Anyway, after a disagreement with Sean (head of customer service) I was suspended. I never had a single complaint from a customer or any other employee of reverb, juts Sean. He is a terrible human.
Their seller protection has a TON of room for improvement, as they did almost nothing to help me. In one case I ended up paying return shipping on an item I accurately described and had good pictures of.
I have talked with several people that no longer sell on reverb, two of the people only had complaints about Sean.
I hate reverb. I made a new account, with a new name. They matched the bank account number and suspended that account as well.
All this after I made them hundreds in sellers fees and processing fees.
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If you are into online transactions, sooner or later you run into some dishonest seller or buyer. The reason ebay and reverb got so big IS basically buyer protection (paypal as well), and that's why they are slightly biased towards the buyer. In dozens of online transactions over the years, i 've only had a problem once (with a US known shop that charged me and never sent me anything), and paypal gave me my money back.
One basic reason also that Reverb got so big so fast, is not having the expensive commision that Ebay has, so i wouldn't badmouth them over commission related things. I mean, if you ever sold stuff on Ebay, talk about commission...
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I am very hesitant to sell anything online these days. I sold an expensive camera lens through a popular photography forum's buy/sell section. A month later I got an email from PayPal saying that it was disputed and the lens was back on its way to me. The story was that the buyer said it didn't work so he sent it back to the factory for repairs. He said that they said that it was a grey market lens and they wouldn't work on it. It was completely fabricated - I bought it through one of (if not the most) the most reputable photography stores online and registered it with the company. I showed PayPal my documentation and said that the lens worked when I sent it. When the lens got back to me it still worked as well. That didn't stop them from still siding with the buyer though - even with the evidence and receipts I had. That money had already gone to rent and I was living paycheck to paycheck so it really ended up hurting my credit since I couldn't pay them back for it. It really soured me to anything that is not a cash in hand sale (except here, where I do trust the sellers even though I have not bought or sold here). PayPal did nothing to protect me as a seller and I will never use them to sell something again, or, by extension, eBay or anything else that requires PayPal.
I have not used reverb yet but i might be very soon since I am interested in an Eastman I found there. Selling with PayPal is off the table but I haven't had any buying experiences and apparently they "protect" the buyer so much that they would not look at the hard evidence that proved that I as the seller of that lens was right and getting jerked around by a guy who probably wanted a free lens rental so I guess I should feel safe buying with them.
The recent reverb experience is troubling to read about though; that this guy Sean banned someone just because of a personal disagreement is not encouraging since customer service is the backbone of a good and safe online shopping experience. This is one thing that has had me return to Amazon so frequently. I have had bad purchases there in the past (mislabeled items, a counterfeit fountain pen and some other things) and they have ALWAYS made it right, and quickly.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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Put me on the list; the replacement tuners for my '36 Kalamazoo 00, the K&K pick ups, the Mandolin Tail Piece, (best of all) the trade I made for my '69 Harmony Bat Wing Mandolin, have all been perfect! I always check therating of the Seller, and I hope, the Seller checks my rating as a Buyer.
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Be aware that using Paypal on Reverb AUTOMATICALLY sets you up with EVERY FUTURE payment AUTOMATICALLY, if you refuse you cannot complete the transaction. Add to that you can only make single transactions it's not nearly as easy as doing business on Ebay.
To some this may be a nit, but if Target can get hacked (I dare say a larger company than Reverb) so can Reverb. After EVERY transaction on Reverb I go to my Paypal online account and discontinue automatic transactions with Reverb.
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I purchased a guitar years ago on feebay, before the PayPal "Protection" even though the pics were very grainy because the write up gave a very detailed description of the guitar and the seller said it was in "Superlative" condition.
I received the guitar which was really a players guitar and not worth the asking price.
I contacted the seller who refused a refund saying I purchased it "as is". I agreed, "As Is" in the stated condition and told him that he was committing fraud over the internet and UPS, FedEx, DHL, and all the rest were all covered under the USPS codes for fraud which carried up to, I believe, a $10K fine and 5 yrs in jail.
The seller replied that I shouldn't make threats I couldn't keep and I should look at the bottom of this new response. It showed the law firm he worked for.
I responded "Great, I'm going to take this guitar to two independent shops and have a written appraisal done. Then when their evaluations don't agree with your write up, which I know they won't, I'm going to send copies of all three to your local Bar Association and ask them what they think of "one of their own" committing fraud over the internet and across state lines."
I received my refund the next morning and returned the guitar.
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Troubles can happen of course, but I have bought and sold guitars on EBay with zero issues. I sold for the first time on Reverb this winter with no issues at all.
Sure I could run into problems, but I can also do things to keep this FAR less likely. I find this the case for all people.
A snarky serial guitar malcontent can (in my opinion) expect to find troubles at a remarkable rate - and receive remarkable service and attention nonetheless. This is arguably to the credit of places like Reverb. Arguably.
I feel that genuine problems or misunderstandings do occur. But I have the opinion and personal experience that the vast majority of sales go quite well, but do not get proportionally reported.
Chris
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You're right in the former but feedback is the latter condition that good transactions get reported on both Ebay and Reverb, IMO it's a GREAT tool for buyers. I think the online auctions should get more involved to preempt issues. Originally Posted by ptchristopher3
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I've had good enough luck with a few Reverb purchases so far, but I am very cautious.
I am not surprised that there are some bad sellers out there, but also I think many problems with on line purchases are created by buyers having unrealistic expectations and then expecting easy refund and return shipping. Not a very realistic approach IMO.
Trying to do a return/refund at a local store is tough enough. Best to be sure before you hit that "Complete Transaction" button.
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